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Author Topic: Newerth Competitions Hosting Guidelines  (Read 17541 times)
Daemon
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« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2012, 07:22:16 pm »

What people aren't liking is this:
The Newerth admin liaison (currently: Daemon, Clemens),
Even though one isn't faulting the work you've put in, i would like to see the people in the Newerth Liaison list increased to 5-7 that covers NSL, PUG'S, NDC and public game experience.

Will be back later and answer to the other issues, but right now i will tell you that we've asked this question in the Newerth admin forums. Nobody except Darkbread volunteered to have his name on the list. The list is forever open, but actually, there is pretty much no one willing to do it. They know the kind of shit they need to go through because of hosts' inflexibility.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 07:28:29 pm by Daemon » Logged

Feathers
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« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2012, 07:30:21 pm »

but right now i will tell you that we've asked this question in the Newerth admin forums. Nobody except Darkbread volunteered to have his name on the list. The list is forever open, but actually, there is pretty much no one left.

1) The admin community is low
2) Its not representative enough for these areas "Newerth Liaison list increased to 5-7 that covers NSL, PUG'S, NDC and public game experience. " I propose you ask again in the CQ or ask people who have hosted success previous tournaments.
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« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2012, 07:37:34 pm »

The ass-kisser above your post summed it up nicely, Ale. Smiley

Fu, Hakugay.  Tongue
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Daemon
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« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2012, 07:47:49 pm »

but right now i will tell you that we've asked this question in the Newerth admin forums. Nobody except Darkbread volunteered to have his name on the list. The list is forever open, but actually, there is pretty much no one left.

1) The admin community is low
2) Its not representative enough for these areas "Newerth Liaison list increased to 5-7 that covers NSL, PUG'S, NDC and public game experience. " I propose you ask again in the CQ or ask people who have hosted success previous tournaments.

Yeah, well, it is what it is. Do you think i would rather not have my work reach hundreds of thousands of players, instead of like 50 players online on 60 servers? As i said, it is what it is...

Newerth is a meritocracy. One is presented with the option to become a Newerth admin following one's worthy contributions to Savage XR and Newerth, and an admin vote whose positive result materializes into an invitation. But most people are just used to demand instead of working for it, so recruiting is difficult.
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« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2012, 07:54:31 pm »

This is towards Hakugei, my suggestion about a separate child forum would cover this.
As mentioned i suggested this to Hakugei who said he would mull it over. This doesn't require people to be admins of Newerth, just able to view and discuss a thread, may i suggest using the forum for nsl4 as a permanent discussion place for peoples competitions.
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Hakugei
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« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2012, 07:59:14 pm »

This is towards Hakugei, my suggestion about a separate child forum would cover this.
As mentioned i suggested this to Hakugei who said he would mull it over.

I'm in the process of creating related sections, for which the related competition personnel will have access to.
Obviously, it's not open to the public. Smiley It's for admins and organizers, just as the section you're referring to has been in the past.

Sections so far:
NSL
NDC
SWC
PUGCup
ClanCup
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« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2012, 10:05:06 pm »

Guidelines are fine, not sure why people always have to find something to argue over.
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Groentjuh
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« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2012, 11:51:18 pm »

VII. The Official Servers
1.   The official version of servers hosting any Newerth competitions is Savage XR 1.0.
2.   The server list has to be published after discussions with the server owners (like Tirza, Groentjuh, Valli). The server settings, if anything differs from the official Newerth CW settings, should be included (i.e. spawn times, game length, XP etc.).
3.   Although perhaps not always possible, a replay server should be available for anyone to access in order to record videos or examine possible proof of hacks, exploits or other rules being broken.
As I had discussed with Clemens/Hakugei before: My match servers won't Savage XR 1.0 until it is actually released. Like I explained several times: It's not a wanted situation to have CW server running on a 'testing' channel. It wouldn't be the first time something not really ready is put in testing and servers require a roll-back which not every server administrator can perform on his server. I'm not against using a certain savage version, but it needs to be a stable, try and tested version. XR1.0 servers(except replay servers) are running well, but it is just located in the testing channel.

What are the "official Newerth CW settings"? There is no such thing as official Newerth CW settings. Valli and I just dislike doing double the work, so we lent and improved our CW config together which resulted into what many match servers use atm. I doubt there is much credit for Newerth in that.

So if those settings do not really exist, who will make those Official Newerth CW settings? There is a Clans Quotum, but for server administrators such a thing doesn't exist. Tournament organizers do not have the knowledge to build good settings and maybe even the Newerth admin liaisons do not know their way in the server settings. A server administrator Quotum seems the only party fit to compile those Official Newerth CW settings. Likely based on input from the Clan Quotum and possible the tournament organizers.

What if a server administrator is not willing to use those settings and/or provide what settings are different on his server? It's not like a tournament organizer can force a server administrator to use certain settings or to provide a list with the difference between his and the official newerth CW settings. The same tournament organizer does sometimes needs those servers. So what is the point with having that guideline, while the tournament organizer cannot (nor you) cannot enforce it. In the recent SWC we didn't provide that for the US server while everybody knows that had different settings!

Why should a replay server be provided to everybody. I mean wouldn't it be better to just allow 3 small groups to get access to it. The first group would be a selection of the disputing party, the second group with be a selection of the defending part and the last group would be judges/dispute admins. Getting everybody to see it created more drama.

Also I'm wondering if this rule has another to do with the actual hoster. He has barely any control of servers. He depends once again on server administrators to get this done. So what is the point of that guideline?

So basicly I'm suggesting to change the section into the following:
1.   The official version of servers hosting any Newerth competitions is the latest stable savage XR version.
2.   The server list has to be published after discussions with the server owners (like Tirza, Groentjuh, Valli).
During the discussions with the server owners the following points should be discussed:
 - Server Settings
 - If Server Owner is willing to assist in event of disputes and which tools(rotated server-logs, server-side demos, etc, etc) are available.
 - Things that are needed to compile the serverlist.
The serverlist must contain:
 - Server name, Server Owner(s) and Server Admin(s)
 - Method of booking
 - Savage Server Version
 - Differences between server settings which are worth mentioning.
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« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2012, 12:17:16 am »

I'm not against using a certain savage version, but it needs to be a stable, try and tested version. XR1.0 servers(except replay servers) are running well, but it is just located in the testing channel.
XR1.0 is stable, tried and tested, actually; so it's good to go (once Mohican returns, it ought to be released, nothing stands in the way anymore). But I agree that having the testing channel directly affect 1.0 right now is a huge inconvenience; not just to the server admins, but also to the players and devs.

What are the "official Newerth CW settings"? There is no such thing as official Newerth CW settings. Valli and I just dislike doing double the work, so we lent and improved our CW config together which resulted into what many match servers use atm. I doubt there is much credit for Newerth in that.
Well, you sort of are the Newerth Server Admin around. :p And you belong to Newerth.

A server administrator Quotum seems the only party fit to compile those Official Newerth CW settings. Likely based on input from the Clan Quotum and possible the tournament organizers.
If you deem such a section and co-operation necessary, tell us what exactly you have in mind and wish for, and we'll get it done. Server settings has been quite the mess in the past.

What if a server administrator is not willing to use those settings and/or provide what settings are different on his server
If there are enough servers, then that server admin will simply not be offering a valid competition server(s). It's sad, but that's how it'll be. However, in certain cases it may make more sense to find a compromise - e.g. when a US server is necessary and Jmz (as we all know) isn't around or is unwilling. Since most competitions and clans are EU, it hasn't really been that much of a problem so far. Let's hope it stays that way. But in either case, compromise is the keyword here.

Also I'm wondering if this rule has another to do with the actual hoster. He has barely any control of servers. He depends once again on server administrators to get this done. So what is the point of that guideline?
Still is his job to communicate with the server admins, even if he has little say in the matter.
And, frankly, if he uneasonably bans all existing servers from the competition ( Undecided ), then he'll have to find new/other servers to take their place.
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Daemon
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« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2012, 08:22:58 am »

Quote from: Groentjuh
What are the "official Newerth CW settings"? There is no such thing as official Newerth CW settings. Valli and I just dislike doing double the work, so we lent and improved our CW config together which resulted into what many match servers use atm. I doubt there is much credit for Newerth in that.

It doesn't mean server settings 'made' by Newerth, but 'used' by Newerth competitions. As soon as either of you gives the configs to us, we'll post them somewhere or you could do it yourselves if you wish, since you're and admin and valli is a global mod.

Quote from: Groentjuh
Why should a replay server be provided to everybody. I mean wouldn't it be better to just allow 3 small groups to get access to it. The first group would be a selection of the disputing party, the second group with be a selection of the defending part and the last group would be judges/dispute admins. Getting everybody to see it created more drama.

That's fine. The guidelines will be changed according to feedback.


Quote from: Groentjuh
What if a server administrator is not willing to use those settings and/or provide what settings are different on his server? It's not like a tournament organizer can force a server administrator to use certain settings or to provide a list with the difference between his and the official newerth CW settings. The same tournament organizer does sometimes needs those servers. So what is the point with having that guideline, while the tournament organizer cannot (nor you) cannot enforce it. In the recent SWC we didn't provide that for the US server while everybody knows that had different settings!

I didn't really think it was that dramatic, e.g. forcing server owners to do this and that. Still, you're getting the guidelines wrong, their purpose is not making all the competitions identical, but making sure that each information with a little bit of importance is known from the get-go, and can be mended if needed, before the kick-off.

Quote from: Guidelines
2.   The server list has to be published after discussions with the server owners (like Tirza, Groentjuh, Valli). The server settings, if anything differs from the official Newerth CW settings, should be included (i.e. spawn times, game length, XP etc.).
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 10:15:07 am by Daemon » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2012, 09:27:31 pm »

After the incident with team Poland happened Groentjuh and me agreed that we want a rule added in following tournaments. You can decide if that fits better the NSL rules or this guidelines.

If a serveradmin is playing within a competition, his team is not allowed to play on the own server. A server, hosted by an other admin, has to be used.
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Hakugei
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« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2012, 09:51:39 pm »

Reasonable suggestion; should be added.
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« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2012, 08:25:56 am »

Another addition to my suggestion above.

If this is added, then it should also be noted done that it has to be assured that the teams of admins which fight on another server, have the possibility to do so. (Means at minimum servers from 2 admins are required to make this work)
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