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Savage: XR is a new patch for Savage, created by the Newerth.com staff. The XR1.1 Client is out now! Download it now!
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Author Topic: Any chance that SR can still be saved?  (Read 4423 times)
Grasshopper
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« on: October 22, 2016, 05:27:07 am »

So I'll be honest, I'm not exactly sure what went wrong. When I first heard the news that S2 Games was planning to take another stab at creating a 3rd title within the Savage series I was excited. Even more so when I found out that they had plans to stick very close to the framework of the original Savage.  Grin As one of the beta testers I never actually got to play the game in multiplayer mode, but figured that this may have been something which was still in the works. Then the next thing I knew the game was released to the public (only few weeks later) as an "Early Access" title. At the time I thought this was strange that we seemed to have hopped from alpha/beta development mode straight into "open to the public" mode, without much advertising that I could tell, and while the game mechanics and feel were still being assessed (or at least that was my assumption).

Then a short time after I started playing the game, I had the feeling that it just was not that fun to play. But I could not put my finger on the exact reason why. I think I may have some ideas as to why the game just does not come across as being very enjoyable, but I'm really interested in hearing from others (who have actually played the game) as to why they believe the game is in it's current state. Also if they think they know what may be the core problem or problems (other than it just not really being that fun to play). I have already read a good number of reviews about the game on the Steam website, although most of the reviewers just seem to complain of lack of players, perceived game imbalances in favor of the beasts, stupid AI, twitchy/unfulfilling combat, and seemingly overpowered range weapons.

While I'm fairly certain that this is not the first discussion of this sort if people could please provide their thoughts and insights as to why they believe the game is in the state/situation that it currently is and if they believe that there is still any chance that it can still be fixed.

The main reasons why I believe the game comes across as not being much fun are the following:

Melee combat does not feel challenging or rewarding
It just feels spazzy. For example when I score a kill in the game I don't have the feeling that I know exactly what it is that I did to cause that to take place. Also not knowing exactly what I did to land a successful strike, does not leave me with the feeling that a certain approach worked well and that maybe I can work to improve or refine this for my next encounter.
[Possible Resolution:] Maybe the melee combat animations need to be a bit longer/more drawn out, or just more obvious?

The game seems to run somewhat clunky even on low and medium settings
No real clue as how to fix this, really not my expertise.

The controls seem to lack responsiveness
Because the game seems to run slightly clunky, I'm not as agile when it comes to movement or being able to dodge ranged attacks. The act of dodging projectile attacks in Savage 1 is not necessarily "easy" but is definitely possible. The controls just seem to be less responsive and I'm not entirely sure why this is the case. Maybe a good analogy is Savage 1 feels like I'm playing Street Fighter 2 on Arcade, and Savage Resurrection feels like I'm playing Street Fighter 2 on the PlayStation 1. Maybe it is input lag, I'm not exactly sure.

Items seem inconsequential and are also somewhat difficult to see
In Savage 1 choosing which item or set of items requires thought. In Savage Rez, I rarely used items other than ammo and health packs. Maybe this has to do with the size of the item models (being somewhat small) and the overall increased glossiness/dynamic lighting which is creating this difficulty? Mines are near impossible to see.

There is no sense of urgency when it comes to commanding
I think it may be due to the way players are interpreting the icons and locations and or direction when using the in game map. It's been a few weeks or more since I last logged in but I distinctly remember playing in games where I had built a Garrison or Sublair just outside of the enemy's base yet my team members would still be spawning from an outpost which was located in the middle of the map??? Maybe it was the fact that many players were so new to the game, but it should really be obvious that the commander has just provided you with a significant advantage, so that any player on the team can recognize and leverage this. It was incredibly strange to watch this take place.

Commander's ability to provide direction to the team is not easy
If I can draw a simple arrow in Savage 1 as to what the current team objective is why can't I do it in Savage 3? Also why are there less voice options for the commander?


These are some of the areas that I believe that S2 Games may need to address, improve, and possibly even rework if Savage Rez is to have a chance at stopping what looks to be the massive hemorrhaging that seems to be taking place, as well as the steady stream of negative reviews. Savage 1 drew me in and left me wanting more, Savage Rez seems to lack "the stickiness factor" imo, I'm just hoping that there is still a chance to turn this boat around.

Sincerely & Good luck guys, I'm rooting for you.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 01:18:45 am by Grasshopper » Logged

DarkStar
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2016, 10:03:54 pm »

So I'll be honest, I'm not exactly sure what went wrong.


It's simple really. They shrugged off valuable critique and responded with "Don't worry, we know what we're doing."
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Trigardon
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« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2016, 05:15:53 pm »

So I'll be honest, I'm not exactly sure what went wrong.


It's simple really. They shrugged off valuable critique and responded with "Don't worry, we know what we're doing."

So true!
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Daemon
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« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2016, 05:49:19 pm »

You are all missing the point Smiley. They were missing the point too. I know everyone is a vet and everyone thinks they know better but trust me: Regardless of the graphics quality, making a new game that's exactly like Savage 1 (or very very close) and expecting it to be commercially viable is IMPOSSIBLE. And the more time goes by, the more the players/consumers behavior changes and a game like Savage cannot fly.

The reason is that the because of the game's skill linearity, players have to be good at a game with no real alternatives other than becoming a good pred or a good lego or both. Imagine a MOBA game where's only 2 heroes: the most minute difference in skills will make the better player win every time. Now factor in that total noobs are, well, total noobs, and there you go, insta quit after 2h of not killing anyone.

And it's not something that can be fixed. Making noob-only servers, even admitting vets can be kept out, would either be:
1. Using the standard settings but low skilled enemies, which will not prepare you to move to the regular skill games. At all!
2. Using noob settings where even if you get good, you're getting good at a totally different game than the regular one.

I've spent months dissecting this thing and i believe i have cracked it, but then again, nobody's listening to us and they shouldn't, since everyone believes they know best Wink. And the only thing that could save the system is helping it evolve.

1) Making all classes/units viable, not just placeholders until 3rd tier is researched or you gather money to buy them.
2) Offering real inventory customization, leading to multiple roles per class as per items used.
3) Putting it on steam (at least).
4) Making it a TOTALLY free game, like XR, and not expecting any income. Which means someone has to lose a lot of money to make, run and advertise the game.

As i've been involved in the making of XR and a couple real games with real budgets, i can safely say that that game can be built for 50K. And then promoted up to the point where you get a full 32-ish server at all times for about 200K. Of course, it will never happen unless i stumble upon a case with some half a mil someone lost.

Trouble with that is you don't find cash bags every day.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 06:04:38 pm by Daemon » Logged

Shagroth
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« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2016, 10:06:44 am »

Maybe people drop gold bags irl daemon, have you tried?

Did you post this somewhere s2games will read?

I find your post very similar to my own understanding of their mistakes.
It's simply not possible to make savage 1:1 and have it be popular cause of spoonfed noob-gamers.
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Daemon
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« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2016, 01:37:31 pm »

I told Maliken myself. A number of times even.
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Helios
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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2016, 01:43:13 am »

So I'll be honest, I'm not exactly sure what went wrong.
One word: Maliken
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paci
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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2016, 11:13:26 am »

Yes like others have said, S2 is the reason why Savage Resurrection failed.  The game was released when it was overall just unfinished; it was not optimized, had lots of bugs, was missing features, etc.  Still despite all that, it was savage, so it was still fun to play, and we had a solid population playing.  However, then it slowly became apparent to all the players that S2 had abandoned the game.  Once everyone realized that the game was never going to be fixed/finished, there wasn’t really any reason to continue playing and everyone left.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 11:18:55 am by paci » Logged
paci
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« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2016, 11:45:53 am »

The reason is that the because of the game's skill linearity, players have to be good at a game with no real alternatives other than becoming a good pred or a good lego or both. Imagine a MOBA game where's only 2 heroes: the most minute difference in skills will make the better player win every time. Now factor in that total noobs are, well, total noobs, and there you go, insta quit after 2h of not killing anyone.

And it's not something that can be fixed. Making noob-only servers, even admitting vets can be kept out, would either be:
1. Using the standard settings but low skilled enemies, which will not prepare you to move to the regular skill games. At all!
2. Using noob settings where even if you get good, you're getting good at a totally different game than the regular one.
You are right.  Back when I played Savage 1, it was either improve or get crushed over and over again.  However, I do somewhat disagree with the idea that noobs will never improve.   Although I did observe many Savage Resurrection players just quit rather than put in the time to get better, I also watched several players start out as noobs but improve to the point that they can compete with the vets.

IMO, the issue could have all be solved with a well thought out, skill based matchmaking system.  The main way to find a match should be to hit the “find match” button.  Then have it automatic put you in a fresh game, where everyone on the server is of roughly equal skills, and with balanced teams.  Then as your skill rating improves, you progressively get placed into to higher skill games.   In fact, the whole concept of opening the server list and finding a game to join is an archaic in modern games.

The problem is that the "find match" was one of the features that S2 left unfinished.  In fact, it is so messed up that it does things like put you on a EU server if you are a US player (and vice versa).  I would manually join a US server from the server list and see that over 80% of players were clearly not US based on their ping.  Most new players don’t realize that they are on the wrong server and have a 200 ping, which is a big part of what makes the game feel "clunky" for them.

Also a big issue is that to have a working matchmaking system, you obviously need players, or else you just sit in the queue the whole time.  It might have worked if it was there on release when we had over 1000 players, but there is no way to implement something like that now with no players.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 12:08:30 pm by paci » Logged
Daemon
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« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2016, 03:30:21 pm »

IMO, the issue could have all be solved with a well thought out, skill based matchmaking system.  The main way to find a match should be to hit the “find match” button.  Then have it automatic put you in a fresh game, where everyone on the server is of roughly equal skills, and with balanced teams.  Then as your skill rating improves, you progressively get placed into to higher skill games.   In fact, the whole concept of opening the server list and finding a game to join is an archaic in modern games.

The reason why this doesn't work is this:

Also a big issue is that to have a working matchmaking system, you obviously need players, or else you just sit in the queue the whole time.  It might have worked if it was there on release when we had over 1000 players, but there is no way to implement something like that now with no players.

If it can't work, it's not a solution at all.
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s33th
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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2016, 03:30:05 pm »

Some nice feedback in here.  I've seen a lot of people complain about the melee feeling spazzy too.  I think this is from using the old hitbox mechanics from Savage 1.  There's really no visual indication that you're only hitting directly in front of your character and not where and when your avatar is actually swinging. 

I'm pretty bummed about what happened with SavRez I was personally hoping for a fun and populated Savage 3 game. In S2's defense though SavRez did sell roughly 50,000 copies (according to steamspy) which from what I've heard is the same amount of units they sold for Savage 1 and Savage 2.  From that standpoint it kind of performed as one would expect. 


Daemon how would you make the classes/units viable throughout the game?  Would this require that they were all of similar power levels across the board?  Would the lower tier units level up over the course of the match?  Or something completely different that I'm not considering?

What do you mean by inventory customization?  Would just adding more items and options into the game fix this or did you have something else in mind?
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Daemon
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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2016, 09:31:40 pm »

http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,16981.0.html

Oh well...
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