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Savage: XR is a new patch for Savage, created by the Newerth.com staff. The XR1.1 Client is out now! Download it now!
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Author Topic: Read 1st :: Post here your 2nd generation re-balancing suggestions  (Read 27182 times)
Daemon
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« on: September 09, 2014, 08:38:16 pm »

After more than 7 years of unchanged Savage gameplay on the brink of turning dull, XR 1.1 was the patch that added those changes that were suggested and debated by the community, reviewed, tweaked and ultimately accepted or rejected by a group of 5 Newerth admins.

Along with those changes, as expected by everybody with at least a vestige of intelligence left, comes the need to tweak, after mass testing. There's also the occasional 'it-wasn't-implemented-properly' situation, so yeah... Smiley

These are the changes that made it to Standard gameplay. List will be kept up to date.

* Healing tech research costs and duration decreased: buildings, units, abilities, items cost and build time down by 50%.
* Monastery/Sanctuary can be built first, they now do not require Arsenal/Nexus in order to be unlocked.
* Rupture improved: 50% increase in ammo, damage rounded to 90 (compared to tempest's 170), +10% larger splash damage area, 10% bonus damage to all enemies in the area it hits, for each enemy it touches and up to 3 enemies per shot (1=100%, 2=120%, 3=130%).
* Mana Crystal, while still slowly recharging mana when carried, became a consumable. It can be thrown like disruptors, it breaks on impact and produces 3 pickable mana crystal goodies (45 mana refill).
* Sensors are now stackable, max 2 in a single slot. Total team sensors changed from 15 to 16.
* Players carrying Ammo Pack now refill ammo over the 50% limit when picking up ammo boxes.
* Sprinting costs 20% less stamina, for all the foot units of both races.
* Sixth Sense now highlights low HP enemies close by, that are less than 1 melee hit away from death, in addition to revealing enemies just like before.
* Shamans have a 2nd melee combo hit, making them a little more combat worthy.
* Chaplains' potions now increase the mana regeneration rate for friendly units (other chaps).
* Two new buildings have been added (Outpost and Burrow) that act as one-way doors or field resupply stations.
* Chaplains and Shamans get the 5th slot open for the aquisition of normal items (not weapons).
* 2 new types of goodie drops from killed units: 10% HP for humans, and 20% Stamina for beasts.
* Sacrifice is removed upon entering a spawnpoint. Can't change unit and spawn with sac still on anymore.
* Behemoth hitting a democharge now causes it to explode instantly.
* Behemoth's ability to capture flags has been removed, aligning them with the other siege units.
* Level 7+ legionnaires can now block a behemoth and be left with ~20% HP.
* Blocking a behemoth and surviving has a downside: the lego's speed is reduced by 20% for 3 seconds.
* Nomad's invulnerability after ejecting from a siege unit is removed.
* Ejecting from a siege unit (cata/balli) drops gold for the other team (or the last attacker).
* The gold income siege units receive for hitting buildings has been doubled.
* Siege units killing foot soldiers does not produce goodiebag drops any longer.
* Ballista has been given Sprint, with 50% of the stamina of a non-siege unit.
* Workers' behavior has been changed so that they ignore attacks if they have a valid order active.

In the following post i will begin with the issues that i've noticed or have been reported or suggested to me since the release of XR 1.1. This is the correct thread everyone can continue reporting such issues or suggest further changes and tweaks.

But before posting anything, pause and think about these aspects:
1. REPLYING TO ANYTHING IS FORBIDDEN. This thread is strictly used as a suggestions collector. The coherent ones will be posted as independent topics where discussions can and will occur.
2. EVERYTHING MUST BE PUT INTO CONTEXT. We're trying to re-balance the re-balancing, so make sure your suggestions take into account the full picture, especially after the new changes.
3. THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR INDIVIDUAL STYLES. If i even smell you're posting something so that if implemented, will help you frag more, i will delete it and you can call "bloody murder!" for all i care.
4. NOT EVERY SUGGESTION WILL MAKE IT. This time there's no set template but make sure you explain your reasons and suggestion properly if you want it to become a topic.
5. BUFFING AN ITEM/UNIT MEANS BUFFING A TEAM. Changing anything for the sake of "making it more usable" will also impact how its team will perform overall. So use small steps, tiny increments, and COMPENSATIONS.

These are the conditions. Posting here implies you agreed with them.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 02:32:19 pm by Daemon » Logged

Daemon
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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2014, 09:01:06 pm »

Imperfect implementations:
-Mana stone uses the "manaAdd 1" state property which adds 1 Mana per regeneration tick. Since Shamans have high regen rate, that 1 Mana is added insanely often because of the change that allows them to equip items now.

Suggested tweaks:
-Extra Drops (stamina crystal and health potion) should have increased refill bonuses, making them worth the trouble of getting in the heat of the battle.
-Outpost and Burrow should be constructed in less time so that they become an acceptable alternative to kamikaze runs (ex: 4 nomads build an Outpost, then grab ballis and do a lair run).

Possible imbalances:
-Chaplains are supposedly still not a good match for Shamans. They're not battle worthy and do not offer a high level of field combat support.
-Although nerfed by removing ejecting nomads invulnerability and the gold drop at eject, sprinting for Ballista supposedly causes the siege unit to turn "too fast".

Suggested changes:

-Ammo pack becomes droppable. Initially suggested for Chaplains only, in order to boost their support value by carrying extra ammo to fighters.

Let's wait for a few more ideas before starting threads, since now things are surely going to be connected more than before. Thank you.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 09:31:44 am by Daemon » Logged

Nanaa
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« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2014, 04:18:04 pm »

Suggested change:
-If you block a behemoth and survive, you'll get a debuff which lowers your speed by 20% but also prevents you from jumping for 3 seconds. The jump prevention should be removed. This change would keep beheflying as a semi-worthy transportation method instead of pretty much worthless. Jumping is needed so that you can continue bunnyhopping after you land and make the full use of your momentum.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 09:32:00 am by Daemon » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2014, 07:34:05 pm »

Suggested change:
-If you block a behemoth and survive, you'll get a debuff which lowers your speed by 20% but also prevents you from jumping for 3 seconds. The jump prevention should be removed. This change would keep beheflying as a semi-worthy transportation method instead of pretty much worthless. Jumping is needed so that you can continue bunnyhopping after you land and make the full use of your momentum.
Seconded.
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Daemon
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« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2014, 08:24:09 pm »

To be investigated:
-Rupture may have accidentally suffered a decrease in damage inflicted to siege units.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 09:32:07 am by Daemon » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2014, 04:26:51 pm »

To be removed:
Remove the gold bags that drop from buildings. They are only worth like 1-10 gold pieces.

[Edit by Daemon] Or perhaps raise the value!
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 05:06:12 pm by Daemon » Logged
JmZ
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« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2014, 10:36:46 pm »

Ballista's sprint should not work on turns due to it becoming incredibly difficult to avoid any lista as beast anymore.
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2014, 02:05:53 am »


Worker Ideas
-Be able to buff workers? (1 Buff Per Worker if there are buffs in pool)
-Send Beast workers through gate?
 (compensates the 3rd buff humans have if the above comes to pass)

- Workers 'Level' up with Stronghold?
Currently it is -
 (workers = 325 hp // lvl 1 nomad = 250 hp // lvl 1 savage =400hp)
Perhaps adjust workers to something like this?
Level 1 Stronghold- 325 hit points // Level 2 Stronghold 350 hit points // Level 3 Stronghold - 375 hit points

- Workers slowly heal over time - or Officer/AO Regin heals workers as well?

- Give workers a 'passive / aggressive' mode.  (Running away or Attacking Back)



Outpost Ideas

- Building provides 'gold over time' that is only activated by commander. It's like a store right?
 (Think Sawmill without stone that can be turned on/off - cap at 50k like team?)
 (Or only active if TEAM gold is under 50% of team gold. 25k or below in most cases)

- Make workers be able to enter it as well / or be able to spawn workers for no price.
- Allow it to heal players and/or workers over time - (Not siege units)
- When repairing the outpost with workers - it costs 0% funds from teams resources.



-Due to the fact 'listas now have sprint (this also includes 360 spins) consider giving Summoner Melee again?
Even if minimal/low damage it was in beta (so I know it's possible)
 It's the ONLY beast unit that does not Melee....(not able to cap a flag though)

-When a pile of bodies build up - so do the drops  - is there a way to limit this in a closed area?
(Example: spawn points // Choke Points // Flags - only so many drops can hold up space in XXX area on map)

-On minimap - target is Blue  - target is Cyan when playing. Is this on purpose?

-When the audible  name 'bleep' sound comes up - is it possible to disable the chat sound FOR that line?
It is hard to hear WITH it. (Barley noticed it till someone pointed it out)




 Change the color of the names of the people 'buddy list' - on the team scores tab?   Afro
(Example, you see yourself as yellow - can your buddies be blue or whatever else...?)


That is all I got right now, and sorry if how I explain this wrong - or misunderstood. Just giving feedback on things I feel could be noted a bit more, thanks!!


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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2014, 05:41:57 pm »

Suggested tweak:
Concerning demo and the ability to make it invulnerable by dropping it and standing still in the same spot on it.
make it slightly tossable so it won't land in the same spot as you stand? or find cmd that allows you to hit it while someone is standing on it.

not exactly patch concerning fix as its pre-patch, but it needs a fix anyway.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 09:32:20 am by Daemon » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2014, 07:04:02 pm »

The re-balancing suggestion:
Elec, mag, chem, fire and heal buff reworked.

1. The precise change you wanna see done, including exact values and item/unit names etc.
Aforementioned buffs changed from single-person use to team-based use.
Whoever gets (or uses) the buff, shall receive an attached state (much like officer state) that buffs everyone within a certain AoE range. However, the individual effect would be reduced accordingly to compensate having multiple targets buffed.
Electric - everyone in range gets x1.5 or x2.0 melee damage. (Down from x3.) 2 hit instead of 1 hit kills.
Magnetic - everyone in range gets 25%-33% damage reduction. (Down from 80%.)
Chemical - everyone in range gets x1.25 speed. (Down from x1.5.)
Strata - everyone in range gets health, stamina and mana regen equivalent of 50%-100% of their max respectively. (Down from 100% instantly.)
Fire - everyone in range gets a small fire buff that deals less damage than the original, but procs just as often and is unblockable.
Entropy - might as well remain the same, as it's already a team-based thing.

2. What triggered it (what is the CAUSE that made you think of something to eliminate that cause)
The amount of annoyance and grief these buffs cause to players.
More often than not, buffs are used to kill enemies for self-gratification.
Rarely are they used to help the team or win the game.
Too often are they also wasted by selfish players that just want to get a single kill in a situation they shouldn't even be fighting in.
Also, players who focus on stats too much and neglect that there's an actual goal to the game.

3. The predicted overall effect of your change (its PURPOSE).
Remove a portion of grief caused by individualists seeking self-gratification.
Shift the focus away from single-person use to actual team-based tactical use.
Giving coordinated teams a bit of a reward, while punishing selfish individual-based teams.

The impact on the game:
4. What will become harder (or easier) to do, and for whom (units, teams etc).

Attacking with coordinated and efficient team pushes will become easier.
Defending against coordinated and efficient team pushes will become harder.
Already strong individualists will have a harder time using buffs to pad their ego further.
Team coordination in general should become easier if these new buffs are officer-only - as it means people will group up more.
Solo-saccing shields will become harder.
Team-saccing will become easier (e.g. snipe-saccing key tech, or shielded towers).

5. Will it make the game harder or easier for newbies (vs. veterans), and why.
Since newbies don't really use buffs, I don't think this change will make it any harder for them.
On the other hand, just staying close to the officer/one-buffing means they'll get a little boost as well; thus perhaps making it a bit easier for them at times (but this should balance out by the enemies also getting these little boosts once in a while).

The ripple effect
6. Subsequent changes needed to tone down (compensate for) the effects of this change.

Buff costs, buff duration, and general number-tweaking.
May even consider having these buffs on own state slots and thus not overwriting themselves; allowing you to combine them for a "super team push".

7. Other changes, which the current suggestion would benefit from or depends on (so it can work properly).
None.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 07:14:35 pm by Hakugei » Logged
SavageLegacy
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« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2014, 12:21:59 pm »

I do think that buffs (particularly human ones) are a bit overpowered in terms of solo fights, I think that they are very necessary in the game currently. The buffs being centered around teamwork are a good idea, but there are just too many games I can think of in which teamwork is simply not an option, particularly in pubs when you have a team that just does not want to work together. Buffs currently play a huge role in ending games, and with these changes I'd imagine there would be many more stalemates, which I'm fairly certain is the opposite of what is wanted. As stringer and you pointed out, it also makes shield saccing nigh on impossible, which is also a huge aspect of the game. Another thing is that it would make it much harder to kill bases which have spires all over, as mag and elec have a much smaller effect, and often spires can only be reached by one person, even when traveling in a group. Perhaps you could implement a setting in which buffs are nerfed after a certain distance away from buildings? This would discourage player on player buffing, and while certainly not a wholesome fix, it could be a temporary solution. For huge aspects of the game like this, I think small changes should be made at a time, rather than one big change that could drastically change the game.
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Daemon
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« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2014, 01:09:05 pm »

1. REPLYING TO ANYTHING IS FORBIDDEN. This thread is strictly used as a suggestions collector. The coherent ones will be posted as independent topics where discussions can and will occur.
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« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2014, 06:09:44 pm »

The re-balancing suggestion:
All self-buffs (not comm buffs) result in death 1 minute after.

1. The precise change you wanna see done, including exact values and item/unit names etc.
Applies to all buffs, all units. Perhaps it could be called "died by exhaustion".

2. What triggered it (what is the CAUSE that made you think of something to eliminate that cause)
See Haku's previous suggestion.

3. The predicted overall effect of your change (its PURPOSE).
Buffs used less for 1v1 situtations stat whoring.

The impact on the game:
4. What will become harder (or easier) to do, and for whom (units, teams etc).
Very long solo teamplay missions would be harder. Would need to use group to penetrate into base. Comms who use buffs more actively will help team more than comms who leave it up to team.

5. Will it make the game harder or easier for newbies (vs. veterans), and why.
Veterans will have a harder time stat whoring.

The ripple effect
6. Subsequent changes needed to tone down (compensate for) the effects of this change.
Potentially ensure that death takes place even when the player is in loadout (similar to outpost).

7. Other changes, which the current suggestion would benefit from or depends on (so it can work properly).
None.
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« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2014, 02:51:10 pm »

Suggested tweak:
Concerning demo and the ability to make it invulnerable by dropping it and standing still in the same spot on it.
make it slightly tossable so it won't land in the same spot as you stand? or find cmd that allows you to hit it while someone is standing on it.


Suggested tweak:
Make demolition charge a physical object with a proper bounding box, thus making units not clip through it anymore (which should be what's causing the trace problem).

EDIT: Testing shows that item objects don't seem to care for collision quite the same way.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 05:26:42 pm by Hakugei » Logged
SavageBeard
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« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2014, 04:08:52 pm »

Suggestion:

Give commanders the power to enable/disable spawning from garrisons/sublairs. This will give them a better chance to direct their forces.  Afro
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