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Author Topic: New Officers  (Read 35720 times)
impulse
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« on: September 21, 2013, 04:12:50 am »

This is an idea I have for savage 1 but could somehow be adapted for savagelive.

I was thinking officers could have their own type of unit and abilities that would emphasize assigning squads and staying close to the officers. It would be a unit the commander could research at lvl 2 and be comparable combat wise with a savage or stalker. After lvl 3 the commander could spend stone to turn his officers into 'champions' based on the three tech lines. Champions health and damage would be better than the standard officer but still not as good as preds or legos, and they would have a special ability with a cooldown. Here are some examples I've thought of.

Magnetic champion: Mass stun for enemy units in a given radius around champion.
Electric champion: Short range instant teleport for champion and his squad if they are within a certain radius.
Chemical champion: Have a rocket pack to where the champion sets up at a location and can indirectly shoot at buildings from above. Kind of like tempest from savage 2.

Strata champion: Group mist and stamina regen or speed buff for champion and squad members in a given radius.
Entropy champion: Teleport for champion and his squad to anywhere on the map with vision. Takes charge time to where the champion can be interrupted or killed.
Fire champion: Same as Chemical champion but with fireballs/meteors.

Hope that makes sense. Discuss!

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salty_dog
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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2013, 05:04:09 am »

Sounds cool. As I read I was thinking, ammo/manna regeneration would be nice. Also reminded me of the game journey. To encourage players to stay together, they made it so players replenished each other when they got close enough together. Savage has health replenish aoe now for officers but that never really motivated me to stay close to them. Champion idea is cool.
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Gridfon
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« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2013, 05:32:09 pm »

Officers are often already the most skilled and over-buffed players, and often not really being team players. If anything, they do not require any more active abilities at their disposal. However, something barely noticeable like ammo or mana regen might be fine.

By the way, is the officer health regen even working nowadays, I believe some people complained it's broken.
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Daemon
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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2013, 06:15:43 pm »

Indeed, we don't want to buff officers more than they already are. We hope to make them so that their team benefits from their smart play more than they benefit from comms favoring them. The abilities they would get, or any other unit for that matter, will avoid as much as possible frustration generators (like disables, slows, negative buffs), a.o.e. spells/powerups (which make fair and square fights impossible), OP individual buffs which would turn them into fraggers and not tactical leaders.

Their efficiency is closely related to how well team members follow their lead. We are considering the implementation of squad/officer related rewards like special gold bonuses for killing targets maked by the officer, auto officer promotions for players hitting some teamplay performance checks.

That's where we could need some ideas for officer bonuses/attributes that would benefit their squad, without unrealistic effects (like weapons doing more damage around offis... why would they?). Think reward, not buff.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 06:25:21 pm by Daemon » Logged

impulse
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« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2013, 08:14:11 pm »

That's why I suggested making them weaker than tier 3 units, or to say they would lose against non officers all else being equal. The best fragger type players likely wouldn't want to be officers, just the players that can be the most useful with them. I'd also suggest making commanders unable to buff them.

I don't see why these things would be considered 'frustration generators,' unit special abilities are very common to RTS's and even FPSs. If you don't like the buffs then maybe each could have a unique aura for their squad related to the tech lines. Overall I'd like more complexity and tactics to be associated with the different tech trees.

And 'fair and square' fights are already nigh impossible with the current buff system.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 08:23:05 pm by impulse » Logged
salty_dog
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« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2013, 09:06:07 pm »

I know people aren't going to agree with me, but I feel like savage would be better without buffs all together. Perhaps I just need to learn to handle myself around them.

 Kind of a side note but I was thinking one way to curb whoring would be to implement a system that only recorded stats for kills when you killed a player that was the same lvl as you. By that I mean one with the same number of play hours. This way farming noobs would be pointless to stat padders. Maybe even making it so that buff kills don't count toward stats.

Back on topic, how about an aoe that rewarded players for staying together called team spirit that gave some advantage like a slight armor or damage bonus. The gold reward for following commands seems like an excellent idea, and if it were possible to focus in on the most important commands like kill commands or travel commands, being teachers pet seems like it should lead to officer promotion. Even outpost basher or home wrecker.   
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Daemon
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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2013, 09:20:57 pm »

I don't see why these things would be considered 'frustration generators,' unit special abilities are very common to RTS's and even FPSs.

And 'fair and square' fights are already nigh impossible with the current buff system.

Well it could be worse Smiley, and we certainly don't want that. But basically we're trying to make a positive game - where each item you buy, each teammate you fight alongside, each buff you get - adds a positive tactical value. Not uber damage, not +1's and -2's, and certainly not debuffs (although there will be some, like snare/immobs). The point of all this is to promote skill based team fighting, not rely on anything but. Regardless of what other RTS or FPS games have. Savage is a quite unique team game, and encouraging and rewarding teamwork is our goal.

Having mass stun, for instance, makes it so that large numbers of players lose control of their own 'fate'. Say you got a pred and you charge 10 legos and you die... well, you asked for it! Say you got a lego and you demorun with no reloc... well, it was your choice. You should always have the choice of doing something or not doing it, going somewhere or not going. Randomly casting that mass stun take that away from players. They can do nothing to prevent it, fight it or get out of it. Skill doesn't matter anymore, nor the money you paid for items nor the time you took to come up with a useful inventory.

As for having a different unit, well, this is quite improbable from an assets p.o.v. as well, but making it even weaker, then, what's the point in using it (=getting officer). It's not entirely unlikely to create a leader-type unit, possibly given to the commander for when and if he spawns. Sort of Jaraziah leading the charge. But that's just a thought.

On a different note, the tech lines would be different. SL's universe is located way before the post-apocalyptic age of S1, so it's going to be more magic-steampunk than sci-fi (for humans at least). In a couple of weeks i'm going to post a draft of the tech trees.
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Hakugei
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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2013, 09:35:30 pm »

Officer AoE buffs could always affect allies without affecting himself. Grin
Having officer thus doesn't make you stronger, while still rewarding allies sticking close.

This would also mean solo players stop getting officer and actual worthy team players get the recognition.
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impulse
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2013, 03:01:07 am »

Oy, I've played savage since the beginning and understand it as well as anyone else. Part of skill is understanding the game mechanics whatever they may be and accounting for them. Savage is more than just the player with the most skill winning in any given situation. That's why it's more than a duel mode, with things like defensive buildings, behemouths, catapults, buffs, and on and on. Also why Demons or any other team could never beat affliction, even though they were better individual players.

I get it, you don't like the stun. These are just some ideas I was thinking of and I'd rather the discussion be about how they could be improved. I feel with some incentives like this, actual squad combat would be more of a natural way to play the game rather than screaming in chat to stay together.

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SavageBeard
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2013, 12:32:29 pm »

Essentially it sounds like you're suggesting a new kind of support unit. You could call them something other than officers.

To me it seems it goes against what Daemon said in the other thread to make sure every unit can use every ability/item.

In my opinion, the abilities you suggest are somewhat interesting. The teleport is kind of crazy, though. If I were to put them in I'd have them as respawning powerups on the map rather than a permanent feature of the tech tree. By that I mean, like quad-damage in quake, but it's a one use ability.

I don't think you need to think about ways to make officers artificially stronger. Being able to buff and mark is pretty strong already. Also the commander can select his officers to players he know will work to win the game, so if you follow an officer like that and do what he does, you'll help to win the game.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 12:38:39 pm by SavageBeard » Logged
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