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Savage: XR is a new patch for Savage, created by the Newerth.com staff. The XR1.1 Client is out now! Download it now!
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Author Topic: Savage Live Info  (Read 65917 times)
SavageBeard
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« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2013, 05:26:09 am »

Interesting. For me it's going to come down to if the controls are tight and the game is responsive and fun when it comes to melee and ranged combat, no fps lag etc. Everything else is secondary.

Seeing the screenshots it strikes me that it doesn't really look like Savage, though  Sad

I'm personally not a fan of the emulated reality art, where it tries to look like the real world. Because it always falls short of the real deal and ends up feeling very cold and sterile. I prefer a stylized version that doesn't necessarily try to mimic reality but draws upon it's likeness. Not neccesarilly cartoony like WoW, even though that's an example of a very stylized world, but something along those lines.

As for gameplay, the new units sound nice.

The loadout changes sound interesting in theory. I'd say Savage as it is now has a lot of versatility already. The only things you can't change are weapons, healer items and siege weapons.

The main problem with the human units is that the lower tier units have less HP. Other than that, they're really excellent units. I would absolutely use Savages or Nomads all game if they had more HP. But this is not the case and thus it almost never makes sense to pick a Nomad or a Savage, if you can afford a Legionnaire. I think this issue will be the same in Savage Live, unless you somehow address the problem of different HP between different tier units. It'd very rarely make sense to pick a unit with low HP if you want to, for example, demorun. If you can carry a weapon, medpacks and a demolition charge, you'd always pick unit with most HP assuming you have enough gold. If you're low on gold, you'd pick the closest unit which could also carry a relocator. So what I'm saying is, the upside of a lower tier units have to really outweigh the huge downside that is lower HP. Maybe you've got something drastic planned like being able to carry 3 demo charges at the same time if you're a nomad.

For beast, there's a lot of the same issues, where the HP matters a lot. Especially since beasts take a lot of damage in melee and can't relocate to heal up. Also, the weapon choice, I think, is heavilly favored towards the weapon with the longest range. Of course a high swing speed weapon or a high damage weapon could in theory be very powerful also. But it would take a lot more skill to use, which is why people don't run around using Stalkers or Scavengers to any great effect. Since beasts use mana for ammo I suppose tweaking the values of regen and mana pool could be done to make the lower tier beast units more useful, though. Also, perhaps you have something planned such as a more powerful sacrifice for lower tier units, if you can carry 3x sacrificies as a scavenger, that'd definately be the unit of choice for that task in many situations.

If your design is that lower tier units would have lower HP, I have another suggestion that might make sense to try. How about having the swing speed/leap cost tied to the unit and the weapon range/damage tied to the weapon itself.

So you'd be able to get a Savage with a Legionnaire axe, who'd swing really fast. A Predator would by default spend 20 stamina/leap and swing slow, wheras a Stalker would spent 10 stamina/leap and swing fast using the same weapon (for example Predator blades). The downside would be that the Savage and the Stalker has lower hp. With this system, lower HP would be an acceptable downside because a Savage with his default swing speed, wielding a Legionnaire axe with it's range and damage would be extremely powerful (maybe even too powerful), the same goes for the Stalker with Predator blades and a cheaper leap, it might even be too powerful. But both would be a great incentive to use the lower tier units.

As for the experience system, I was not a huge fan of it in Savage. I do like it as it presents people with a sub-goal in the game, it's sort of fun to gain experience doing stuff. I liked being able to build and mine faster, but I don't like gaining HP, getting a better leap or more stamina from the experience. Basically, I'm not at all a fan of the experience impacting the combat. If it affects combat, gaining experience turns into a chore (you have to get to level 7 to be able to sensibly melee with beast). If it affects labor, gaining experience makes doing your chores (mining/building) easier, rather than being a goal in itself.

When it comes to gameplay, I think the map designs are the most important. You have to make the maps to facilitate the gameplay you want. For example, a huge map without flags almost always end in a draw because by the time a player has reached the enemy base, the enemy has had time to respawn 2-3 times, making any attack mutually impossible. So where some may make the mistake to blame the game of being bad, it's actually the map that needs to fit the game better. By that, I'd say 50% of the success of Savage Live will be if the maps actually make sense for the gameplay or not. If you look for new gamplay elements, here's a suggestion I posted a while back: http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,16379.msg181267.html#msg181267

So excuse my somewhat incoherent response, but there are some of the issues I think exist in Savage in relation to your proposed changes, I hope you can get something thoughtful out of it. But that being said, it'll be interesting to try and play because screenshots doesn't really do any game justice I suppose.  Afro
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 06:39:17 am by SavageBeard » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2013, 09:46:59 am »

Godspeed
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Daemon
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« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2013, 10:03:28 am »

Thanks for your analysis. We've reached pretty much the same conclusion ourselves, about the usefulness of lower tier units. Although some of things you're proposing (like weaker units to be able to carry more demos or sac power) don't make much sense, the rest does.



So basically where the unit's position in that swatch will be, will dictate what it should equip and use, and practically, its role. We hope we can make units reasonably asymmetrical, even melee ones. For instance, beasts, while still having a good all-rounder (the crocodile creature, roughly replacing the predator) would have a 3rd melee unit which would be a smart beast Smiley. The bear creature will boast heavy stats plus magic traits, while the wildebeest tier 1 creature would just be a fast, vicious beast.

Some thing we haven't fully worked out yet. For instance, the working theory is, besides allowing units to equip the right hand weapon, to let them pick from a selection of left hand items, like a couple of shields and dual weapons (hatchets, light swords). This way one could forgo the use of shields' added protection and just go all dual melee weapons swirling and stuff. Not sure what the beasts equivalent of this choice would be, though, since they would use both hands anyway. The probable scenario is letting them pick a melee weapon (like claws, pred-like blades, etc), an equivalent of humans' weapon, and then add a melee enchancement to it (like rabid, carni and venomous) as the choice equivalent of the shield.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 10:21:29 am by Daemon » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2013, 10:44:24 am »

Doesn't savage or stalker cause the most damage, if you take the attack rate into account?
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Daemon
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« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2013, 11:35:27 am »

DPS, yes, and we would keep it that way. Actually Nomad and Savage have amazingly similar DPS, and they both benefit from the block/hit thing, whereas the Lego actually performs even worse if you block/hit.
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SavageBeard
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« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2013, 03:06:44 pm »

Ultimately the play testing will give the answer wether or not the new classes make sense and play well. I thought some more about it, and actually only the savage and the stalker are truly obsolete units when it comes to tech. The nomad/scavenger are still used throughout the game as builders/miners and the game would not be the same without them.

Almost all weapons except hunting bow/incinerator/scattergun have their use late game, imo, possibly the repeater as well due to late game it's outmatched by coil in range and by pulse cannon in effectiveness vs siege. So, if you consider it, there's not really that much tech which is truly obsolete in Savage.
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Daemon
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« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2013, 03:19:42 pm »

You can call it as you will, Incinerator, Mortar, Launcher and MMBow never get used, Repeater and Pulse barely, while Scattergun, Disruptor and Xbow, only for a minute or 2, whichever one got lucky to be researched before Flux was up.

Flux, Coil - Most of the time
Repeater, Pulse - Rarely
Tier1 Weapons - before Tier 2 is up.
Incinerator, Mortar, Launcher, MMBow - Never.

That makes 2 overused weapons out of 12. Obsolete or not Smiley.
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« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2013, 03:38:05 pm »

Almost all weapons except hunting bow/incinerator/scattergun have their use late game, imo, possibly the repeater as well due to late game it's outmatched by coil in range and by pulse cannon in effectiveness vs siege. So, if you consider it, there's not really that much tech which is truly obsolete in Savage.

IMO scattergun has the highest dps against a single behe in close range but on longer range pulse cannon beats it. Coil is often the best choice for dealing with behetrains. For example, on horde_pass I did massive damage by hitting like 10 behes with every coil shot.
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SavageBeard
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« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2013, 03:39:09 pm »

You can call it as you will, Incinerator, Mortar, Launcher and MMBow never get used, Repeater and Pulse barely, while Scattergun, Disruptor and Xbow, only for a minute or 2, whichever one got lucky to be researched before Flux was up.

Flux, Coil - Most of the time
Repeater, Pulse - Rarely
Tier1 Weapons - before Tier 2 is up.
Incinerator, Mortar, Launcher, MMBow - Never.

That makes 2 overused weapons out of 12. Obsolete or not Smiley.

Yes it's correct what you say, but what I mean is, they have their distinct use even if they're not all purpose weapons. Mortar/Launcher is great for killing tech, sometimes it's the decisive option that lets you progress the game. Pulse is against behe/summoners and if you don't have Pulse, then Repeater is a good option. Discharger isn't a bad idea if you have good aim. I wouldn't view the existence of weapons that mainly have a niche use as a failure of the game design. Sometimes you really need them but most often you don't. I think you could argue that most weapons have some actual legimitate role to play even in the late game (other than something you'd use for shits n' giggles). But I admit there are some truly useless ones such as the incinerator, and some which are pointless late game such as the crossbow Smiley
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« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2013, 04:37:22 pm »

Where do I sign up?
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biggeruniverse
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« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2013, 05:46:17 pm »

I loved Savage 2.
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« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2013, 07:06:49 pm »

I loved Savage 2.
Of course you did. Great point for why it sucked.

But seriously, don't screw with weapon "balance" much. As others have said almost every gun has a purpose. About the only weapon that has no direct purpose is incinerator. Otherwise:

Beast:
Frost-
Frost Bolts: Great in t1. Great all around for killing towers and stopping demo runners and general CQC situations.
Tempest: Obviously amazing weapon in all tiers. Great range, great dps, great skill req etc.
Lightning: Good for long range sniping and a decent counter to MMBOW. Also really good against gold starved teams. In the right situation it keeps them gold starved by stopping them from getting to NPCs and gold.
Fire-
Ember: Decent T1 weapon that allows you to have some fight against crossbow. Really the only decent beast t1 ranged weapon. Even if it is limited.
Blaze: Great CQC dps and the go to weapon all game for killing siege units. Great for defense. Also decent at getting towers down.
Fireball: Mostly useless but it does have a use for getting shields. It does enough damage and works in a way that sometimes you can use it to get to shields summoners cant.

Humans:
MMBOW: Great counter to lightning, great for defense on open maps, great for stalemates. Only problem is unlike lightning it tends to end up gold starving humans as they're almost always using it on defense rather than offense.
Magnetic-
Scattergun: Great for CQC, decent against siege. Works decently against frostbolts for CQC combat.
Repeater: I'm not a fan but ive seen some people use it as a staple all game long. REALLY good against Behes and Summoners. It also makes it hard to fight back because of the constant little ticks of damage making your screen flash red.
Coil: Obviously amazing. If beasts had it, it'd be ridiculous; beasts being faster moving and more unpredictable makes it harder to use than tempest. Takes a lot of skill to use at its best potential but is very rewarding. Great for defense in maps with lots of open space (especially in front of base).
Electrical-
Disruptor: Great skill weapon. In the right hands it's overpowered in T1 and useful in all tiers.
Flux Gun: The go to human gun for most people. Useful in t2 and t3. It puts a lot of pressure on meleeing beasts. Only limited by its range. Takes far less skill to use than coil and has lots of ammo.
Pulse Cannon: AWESOME for behes and decent for summs. The only thing that really holds in back from being a usual choice for people is the prevalence of storm shield. One of the better players to ever play savage (pattycake), always used pulse and a savage. Thus making many arguments around this thread invalid.
Chemical-
Incinerator: Yes, useless until you see my next area of point...
Mortar and launcher: I'm going to group these two. They both serve very similar purposes. They're very useful for taking down buildings and spires. Mortar is also extremely useful for getting to areas no other can, such as bouncing around a grims wall or something. Its also an unpredicable landing area projectile sometimes due to its bounce, so when it is spammed it can be very hard to avoid.

IMPORTANT BIT
Okay now based on that, a first conclusion is that incinerator is useless and some weapons may need a buff. However, that is where most people fail hard when it comes to game design. You cannot just factor in how the gun itself works in savage. You also have to consider what comes along with it.
What makes demo rushing a risky strategy? Incinerators.
What makes sac rushing a less but still risky strategy? Ember and blaze's ability to work by themselves in combat vs t2 human weapons.

It is things like that, which immediatelly concern me when people start talking about re-balancing savage or adding new things to savage. Balance in savage is more complicated than most games (even though this kind of thing is over-looked in most games too). If you are going to buff anything or nerf anything you have to very carefully think of what happens to the strategy around that weapon.

I am not saying balance is perfect in Savage. Beasts tend to have to win before stage 3 stalemates in public games due to human demo running widdling them away without epic teamwork to combat it and fight on. What I am saying is just buffing or nerfing things that are weak or even making minor changes that sound good on paper might end up drastically changing things you didn't want to change and making totally different things overpowered.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 07:09:42 pm by Bearded Frog » Logged


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« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2013, 07:18:15 pm »

Also, guns like disruptor, coil and tempest are some of the best types of balanced weapons.

Weapons that are balanced around Skill are the most effectively balanced weapons. Its way better to balance around skill curves than damage buffs or nerfs. It makes things rewarding.

For coil or tempest to be really OP you have to be really good with them and practice with them a lot. Some people can never be good enough to use them at their OP level. If you're only able to muster 30% tempest and 25% coil (which is somewhat low average), then you're not going to be that effective with them. Players who spend the time and have the skill and talent to reach higher levels like 50-60%+ tempest and 40-50%+ coil are going to wreck with them. Which is the way it should be.

A weapon that works like shit in the hand of a novice but works amazingly in the hands of a pro is a great designed weapon. It gives a new player a goal to strive for in improving themselves and shows them they can be good too if they work at it. If a gun is too easy to use there is no reward for improving...
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Daemon
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« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2013, 07:37:22 pm »

It is things like that, which immediatelly concern me when people start talking about re-balancing savage or adding new things to savage. Balance in savage is more complicated than most games (even though this kind of thing is over-looked in most games too). If you are going to buff anything or nerf anything you have to very carefully think of what happens to the strategy around that weapon.

Indeed. Whatever any one individual thinks they can do to 'fix' or rebalance Savage, they're wrong. There's no single mind that can do it, it's just impossible. There are underused and overused weapons, though. Unlike geniuses out there which think they can get it right, i don't, and that's why i encourage these discussion threads where the community can provide useful info and feedback. And even so, like with the Savage XR Gameplay Rebalance section, even if i liked them and even if they come from the players as a result of a group effort, i wouldn't force the changes on the default game settings. Just look at the Evolution mod which we've worked hard at, but it's still optional.

That said, we don't plan on "messing" with the weapons, let alone their niche usage. But as we stand, they ARE being neglected. If you're saying that it's better to have 90% of the players use 10% of the weapons, you are wrong. But SL is a new game, meant at addressing the issues that prevent Savage from getting new players. One of them is that flux. Just put yourself in the shoes of a newbie pred that gets slowed down and pwnd in seconds, having no idea how to counter 1, let alone a web of fluxes. But the solution is not crippling the flux, the solution is offering more viable choices, so that they generate multiple play styles and a player's encounters with the same annoying weapon, over and over again, are limited.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 07:39:01 pm by Daemon » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2013, 12:21:59 am »

This is awesome, but I was hoping for an HD Savage remake. Oh Well.
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