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Author Topic: Question to admins  (Read 4008 times)
Evolved Darkness
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I hate everyone equally.

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« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2013, 01:11:14 am »

I'd have no need to spit on refs if you did your job instead of just kicking people and saying it was justified. Acting neutral is being hypocritical? Defending someone who was kicked for no reason is hypocritical? Affected gets kicked all the time for being stupid, do I bitch at the refs who kick him? No, because it was a justified kick and he deserved it. Same goes for thrill, and for hwoa, and whoever else in fox has a loud mouth and is kicked often. You might want to look up the definition of "hypocrite."

My "after kick rage" was completely justified. You gave him what, 10 seconds to respond to your "oh hai slug u has nazi icon still?" I might have been over the top with telling you to fuck off, but you were wrong as well.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 01:22:46 am by DarkStar » Logged

Righteous Scarecrow
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« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2013, 03:17:11 am »

I would say keep up the good work of modding, but you as mod is even more useless then you as ref.
If you make the effort to modify your post in order to include an insult, at least make sure to get your facts straight, because right now you just produced some nonsense.

If you indeed did not paste any exact quotes from this topic to Slug, then I am sorry for this false assumption.

Anyway, I'll use the valuable opportunity to have a constructive discussion with one of the people who repeatedly claims that G&G refs are useless, and even points at me in particular. Because I can't argue in defense of all refs (no one can, it's too abstract), but I am very confident in what I am doing myself. Since I have seen you made your claims publicly on a number of occasions, you probably have good arguments to back up your point of view.

Let's put facts straight. I want to make a compelling argument for anyone (especially, Groentjuh) why exactly EnglishSlug has to be banned from G&G. My side goal is to settle things down with you by showing that you're heavily misinformed, or demonstrate everyone that you are as disposable as EnglishSlug is (sorry!). And a big goal requires a lot of effort.

So let us go back in October or November 2012. It was the first time both me and EnglishSlug happened to be simultaneously active ever since I became a G&G referee in July 2012. I think everyone will agree that EnglishSlug has great leadership skills, at least as far as Savage interaction is concerned. So it's no surprise that a lot of people are biased towards him; I was not an exception.

Anyone knows that EnglishSlug tends to spawn siege as a commander. That either happens to kill demo runners with behe, or when he's pissed off while losing a game as a human commander, so he spawns ballista for whatever goal. The G&G server has the following rule Nr. 11: "Commanders are not allowed to spawn as siege units." I saw him spawning as a siege on a number of occasions, and I warned him every time I saw it. I was biased, so there were definitely a lot more warnings than kicks. Honestly though, I'm can't remember if there were any kicks at all. But it was very likely communicated that he's an old player so I don't even need to warn before kicking -- he knows the rules anyway.

I definitely remember that the warning-spam from me continued for several days in a row. Until I got fed up and kicked him one day, without even warning anymore, since it's clearly useless, neither I have to warn him anyway. Guess what happened? The first thing he did was he went to Skype and deleted me from his contact list. Then he proceeded to flame me in the Skype conference chat of Earth (that contained both me and EnglishSlug). I am sure that at this point he was surely told by both me and Dervun (who is also G&G referee) that as an old player he does not have to get warning for spawning siege.

It has been this way up to this day. EnglishSlug keeps on flaming all referees for not warning him before kicking for spawning siege as a commander. And I learned to kick him whenever he spawns that siege, without a warning. Because why would I warn an old player who does not react on warnings, and also loves to flame me on top of that?

Now the second thing about EnglishSlug. What is the best way to fight against referees? Right, do something that they supposedly do not like. Racism is the best means to do that, you can always argue you were clueless (hm, can you?). Or you can argue that referees misunderstood you and it was never meant to be racism in the first place. Please take a look at the flag of Nazi Germany and the Nazi Party from Wikipedia. And now tell us which exactly of the following things you find acceptable:
By the way, here's an interesting read for the less educated people.

I have probably kicked EnglishSlug up to 20 times over the past 3 months, every single of such occasions based on either spawning siege as a commander, or based on explicit racism like mentioned above. And most often I do not punish a player if I come back from a long AFK, scroll up the lobby chat to the very top and see he did or said anything bad (e.g. racistic) there. I believe that a punishment must follow the wrongdoing immediately, and not 10-15 minutes later. There's definitely a chance to increase the amount of my "abuse" against EnglishSlug and I intend to work on achieving it.

So which exactly part of this does EnglishSlug find confusing and self-contradictory?
And now for a moment assume that all refs are absolutely useless. Can you justify this amount of racism even in that case?

And don't even get me started about EnglishSlug heading a bunch of Earth, DeMo and Fox players that enjoy trolling Moxy (previously - Rene) by using their real names and a lot of other retarded stuff. I actually don't know you're not one of them, but I want to believe you are not.

Next, from my story above you can easily see how the attitude of EnglishSlug can change after a single hostile action against him. On top of that, he's simply great at influencing people. So if you are a referee and you want to stay on good terms with EnglishSlug, you better ignore all of his trolling. I'm sure Feathers and a few other referees learned that lesson good, and they will stay passive no matter how much some of the other referees are against that. It's not the only example of people being biased, most often it's inevitable, but anyone has his own limits of being biased. Now I'm biased against Feathers as well, but I will admit his behavior towards EnglishSlug's racism is a long standing concern as well. I have heard requests to remove his ref, and they are not unjustified. We can also remove a couple of other referees. But I'll prefer to start by removing EnglishSlug instead.

I suggest to ban EnglishSlug, or at least put him on instant-kick list that does not require any offensive actions from his side. By doing that, we achieve a lot less racism and drama on G&G, and hence in Savage community overall. Not only EnglishSlug will be gone, but he will also stop influencing a lot of other people that easily follow any leader they see in front of them, but are otherwise harmeless.

I will also argue that EnglishSlug is very unlikely to change in the nearest future. Anyone with an access to the G&G referee boards can find topics as old as 2009 or 2010 that contain the complaints about his constant commander siege spawning at the very least, and perhaps racism as well. As far as I know, one of the referees already suggested banning EnglishSlug some time ago, but this idea did not pass. Perhaps now is the time to reconsider it.

However, I will stop at this point and wait for the answers from DarkStar and everyone else. If you find a serious flaw in my argument, I am ready to discuss it and may be even change my opinion.

I'll still go through a couple of initial questions, to make sure I actually answer all of the DarkStar's concerns.

In the middle of me telling him to cut the crap, he was kicked (for no reason, btw) by rene. Maybe you people should get on the same page with who you are going to kick and for what reason. All of this "Oh, i dont find it offensive so i wont kick" and "i find it offensive so i will kick" is bullshit and causes confusion.

I think Rene's explanation is sufficient. Given the horrible history of EnglishSlug's past behaviour, I would not even apologize to EnglishSlug in this case. EnglishSlug is playing with fire, he should have expected that at some point that fire will burn him.

1) Refs should be kicking people for being racist in any way. If one ref is going to kick him for a stalin icon, others should follow suit. If you don't it causes confusion, your fault not mine. If some refs allow slug to use such words, do you honestly think he will stop?

I have never heard or seen any referee kicking someone for anything related to Stalin. Once again, I am not claiming I am sure it does not insult anyone and there's no valid reason to fight Stalin icons, but this far that has never been a public concern.

I partially addressed the problem of referees allowing EnglishSlug to do stuff above. But I will continue on this. If some referee does not act against something that should be punished, then please share your concerns with other refs, or with Skuggi, or write a post on G&G referee forums. If several referees are punishing people for doing a particular thing, that is a good indication that this thing is not allowed - you should go by that rule as a rule of thumb. And since you sincerely care about the well-being of the Savage community, please help us and discuss any contradictions you see (constructively, not by simply flaming that the server and referees sucks without saying a single other thing).

Over the past 8-12 months I am the person who finds, reports and settles these contradictions the most often. Other referees are doing it as well. But we could use some help anyway.

2) If there are refs that allow racism, they should be talked to or be revoked of ref rights. There are people who have ref (tinki) who say they don't even want it and sit around when shit like this happens. The refs on groent has been a discussion for what, 4 years now? The server is as clean as the refs make it. Fix your refs and players will follow suit.

Tinki resigned from his ref recently. If you see a referee that allows racism, please report such cases. I believe it will require at most 2-3 of such occasions for either the referee to change his behavior (the most often case), or be demoted.

Can an unbiased admin or moderator (i.e. not me, not Rene, not DarkStar... preferably Groentjuh, valli, DJ, Tirza or darkbread) consider moving this topic to the EU Referee sub-forums so that we can hear opinion of Skuggi? Or perhaps temorarily promote Skuggi to a Global Moderator (I guess Daemon will call that an abuse though). I do not want to drag this topic around the forum myself, involving many more people (i.e. all past or present EU Referees) in this discussion based on my own biased decision.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 03:54:57 am by Gridfon » Logged
Newerth Referees (EU)
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« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2013, 03:33:40 am »

pretending to be neutral rather. you miss the point that kick was justified with a reason. i thought i explained it very clearly. no?
 so you were so neutral that you were nicely talking to slug about his hitler pic and how wrong it was. but raging out after i kicked him .  or whenever someone kicks  "slug".ok thats neutral  and not hypocritical.

this is getting personal. ill stop right here

EDIT:you can just ignore this post as it is an offtopic answer . but make sure you read every single sentence gridfon wrote here.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 03:36:21 am by Renegade » Logged

Quack or die!
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« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2013, 08:25:30 pm »

Respect Gridfon!

He who controls the past commands the future, He who commands the future, conquers the past.
Righteous Scarecrow
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« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2013, 11:54:17 pm »

DarkStar - Removed Global Mod status at his request

DarkStar is ready to support EnglishSlug and flame EU referees both online and on the forum... But only as long as flaming is enough. When he is actually required to explain himself, he silently turns around and runs away without saying a word.

I was going to accuse DarkStar of the subtler racism trolling (names, songs) down the road, and I'm glad I don't have to do that now.

I will perceive his retirement as a complete agreement with all of my points, and I will personally not tolerate any of his in-game flaming towards EU refs in the near future.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 12:14:21 am by Gridfon » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2013, 02:46:45 pm »

From what I understand, the problem with in-game avatars won't be solved by Newerth. Furthermore, this topic seems to have evolved to how to handle EnglishSlug's repeated offenses on the G&G's server. While I would've liked to answer DarkStar's posts, that no longer seems necessary (I believe Gridfon's answer suffices).

I don't believe this discussion should be continued here, seeing how many uninvolved people have access this section.
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