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Author Topic: ref has responsibility  (Read 2697 times)
Darth
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« on: May 06, 2012, 01:10:32 am »

Hello, fellow referees. I think you all deserved ref powers, that is respectful. But there is one thing that troubles my mind.
One particular incedent made me certain that not every single ref understands what responsibility he has.
That is very sad fact, I am going to try to prevent such cases now by explaining.

I hope this will be a good reminder on how a ref should act: with common sense.
Will make it in a form of "ref abuse" post.

DEMO: http://www.newerth.com/?id=demo&op=showDemo&file=edenhills.demo
Okay, so I got 2 big things that didn't please me really much in actions of particular ref.
- Not knowing the rules
- Not figuring what situation is before taking ref actions
- Not understanding what the rules and refs are for

Wow, 2 became 3 after taking a closer look.

The whole story
1.
So I was playing on a nice evening and found a funny place to leap to on eden2, a hill in the middle.
Jumped on it and decided to rip humans off their chiprels they didn't care about.
After making a couple of tempshots I was slain by ref who said DO THAT AGAIN AND ITS KICK
That chiprel revenge thing blew my mind, it was a total disrespect to ref role and mistunderstanding it's purpose. Didn't see that for... can't remember tbh.
I didn't do anything bad and police officer should at least tell me why he arrests me, no?
That's not the thing at all though, thats introduction.

2.
So I decided to start recording and try to make him actually talk about what he is doing and why.
Went there again to temp a few more chiprels. After another SLAY we had a dialog (ref was constantly playing t1):
[ME] any words, ref?
[ref] don't exploit?
[ME] eploiting = using game mechanics in the way they weren't intended to be used to SPOIL THE GAME. so explain yourself
(RULE that covers my case: Avoiding map limitations ... to gain unfair advantages (e.g capping flags or sawmills.))
[ref] you'r on top of a mountain that you cant walk up on
[ME] did I kill shield or sac something or (examples like the rules have)? What did I do?
[ref] sniping people from a mountain = exploit
[spec] Did he snipe people from there?
[ME] no
after a brief period (ref relocked to base) REFKICK
Any proper reason or explanation? Now I can start to think that exploring is WORST CRIME EVER. I didn't do anything bad, why kick IN THE MIDDLE OF OUR ARGUMENT?

I am terribly sorry that I didn't help my team at that time (comm ordered me to kill sensor, but I have no right to temp it from such spot), but beat team was winning so I decided I can have some free time.
Hope this will make one of numerous mapmakers fix this exploit spot on such a popular map.

That's my complaint as a player. I nevermind the fact I got the kick, who cares.
Now I want to break it down as a ref. Why was a player that didn't (hope that is clear) break rules kicked? There is a chief principle of common sense that should NEVER be forgotten by one with the ref powers:
You don't do ref actions if you do not know the situation
If you lose it you are a criminal. There's more "tips" that should be under a ref's skin.
  • You really HAVE to see rulebreaking act before doing anything with your god powers. There was no damage to any team, no scouting
  • If you are going to ref you have to be ref, not player. At least go to spec to understand what's going on
  • The point of refing is to keep games fair and stable. Your punishing powers are to counter insults or cheats
  • You CANNOT kick someone without a reason that community can understand. Personal reasons are not for a ref
  • Punishing is for bad guys. Punishing harmless behavior makes a poor lesson for bad guys
Not understanding a single one of those lines is a sin.

So my message for everyone is this:
Refs, you are the justice league. You have no right to forfeit common sense when you are tired, drunk, or something else.
I know someone can piss you off. But when you feel great anger or apathy you can not ref.
It's fine to joke with refpowers in warmup, but punishing is serious thing. Not every player here is Razer or megaerathia, you HAVE to investigate and understand what you are doing.

Please, read underlined text again for me, thank you for reading the whole post.
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Hakugei
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« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2012, 12:06:04 pm »

It's called "preventing you from ruining a game".
He can't know if you're going to use the exploit to ruin or not; but in either case you're not supposed to be up there.
Besides, "scouting" alone is already an abuse. Wink
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Darth
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« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2012, 12:49:12 pm »

Hello, thank you for visiting the thread.
What you said could be good reasons for a kick if they were completely backed up by rules :p
Questionable reasons.

What can you say on my main topic? I marked key stuff with bulletpoints in my original post.
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Groentjuh
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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2012, 12:59:14 pm »

If it was in G&G (or EvO; seems to use the same rules as well) then the rules state:

2. Players are not allowed to exploit the map or the terrain.
Avoiding map limitations using glitches, e.g. getting over grimm's wall.
Abusing the terrain to get to places other players canít get to.

That no longer states that you must gain a unfair advantage from it. In which case the ref acted correctly, other then not being very communicative about why he had slain.
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Moxy
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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2012, 03:45:39 pm »

Personly as you weren't doing anything for the team I wouldn't of kicked however groentjuh is right In saying that the rule no longer says you need to have an advantage you are there and what the ref is doing preventing the. Nance of you using it to your advantage it's to prevent  than to react to something already done
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Darth
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« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2012, 04:03:47 pm »

Hello, there.
Thank you or your opinions and a rule breakdown.

Glad to see my main message (ref attitude) wasn't questioned or doubted at all.
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Hakugei
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« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2012, 04:16:17 pm »

  • You really HAVE to see rulebreaking act before doing anything with your god powers. There was no damage to any team, no scouting
That is true. You broke a rule and they acted. :p But saying damage has to occur first is nonsense. It's better to prevent than to punish. It should be obvious why.

  • If you are going to ref you have to be ref, not player. At least go to spec to understand what's going on
I agree, except in some cases where you can clearly see what's happening anyway.
Generally you'll have a better view from above.


  • The point of refing is to keep games fair and stable. Your punishing powers are to counter insults or cheats
Yep, and that's what they did. They stopped you from cheating and prevented you from any unfair gamebreaking actions. Cheesy

  • You CANNOT kick someone without a reason that community can understand. Personal reasons are not for a ref
It seems like you actually know why you were kicked...
So, uh...? Smiley
Otherwise, yes, it should be mentioned. In all fairness, he warned you not to exploit again. Wink Yet you did it again.

  • Punishing is for bad guys. Punishing harmless behavior makes a poor lesson for bad guys
You broke a rule, so you fall under the category "bad guys". Rolleyes


Not sure what you're trying to say; as the ref behaved as you want a ref to behave.
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Darth
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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2012, 04:53:50 pm »

Not denying I broke one of the G&G rules, which arent on newerth forums sadly.
Quote
Not sure what you're trying to say; as the ref behaved as you want a ref to behave.
Yea, I'm explaining the distance between theese 2. Finally found out where misunderstanding is.

1. I'm questioning the way punishment was delivered, his ability to explain his actions.
Quote
In all fairness, he warned you not to exploit again. Yet you did it again.
What If a guy approaches you in the street and punches you, then he says "give me $$$ or I kill your family"? Doesn't make you want to wink, right? Makes you want to punch him or call the police. You can't see how in the world that idiot has the right to demand something.
That's how demands without said reason work.
I questioned refs demand and he failed to explain it. Least he could to - point me to the rules.

How it should be:
A guy is walking to a local store, police officer approaches him.
- Sir, you have to go around.
- Why would I? It's a shortest route.
- We are having a police operation here. Your presence might endanger your and other peoples life.
Now if a guy runs past police officer - he clearly knows why he can get punishment. Here is the wrong answer:
- Am I not clear? The street behind me is forbidden to step to.
- I walk here every day
- *Punch* Understand now?
Made it as clear as possible  Smiley

2. I'm questioning the way ref looks at his responsibility.
Quote
You broke a rule, so you fall under the category "bad guys".
In my opinions, I really want to find support here, ref should be aiming at keeping games fair.
Rules are the guidelines that can help provide fairplay.
Refs are using powers to help preserve fairplay.
It's refs and rules are different objects of one purpose. Ref shouldn't be a rule slave, it's a very wrong relationship.
Has to separate bad guys from rulebreakers. Was I really a bad guy?

If that is at last clear I am summing it up.
I decided to post my ref complaint to show how a legal refing can be done totally wrong.
Referee should never forget his purpose, or he becomes a slave of his method.

Happy reffing.  Smiley
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Hakugei
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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2012, 05:11:10 pm »

You're asking for more transparency as to why refs punish.
Nothing wrong with that.

But your premise is incorrect. :p
It's not that he has to point you to the rules, it's your duty (this counts for real life, too) to read and acknowledge the "terms of use" (aka rules) before using said "service".
The rules are indeed not on Newerth, they're on the server's own forum.
Here you go:
http://server.groentjuh.eu/index.php?f=7


Yes, you were a bad guy. You broke a rule. Smiley Rulebreaker is the same as "bad guy".
You also knew that you were exploiting (albeit not [yet] causing any harm), you're not denying that.
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Groentjuh
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2012, 05:46:11 pm »

They aren't on the newerth forum, he says: http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,11344.0.html Do proper research! You failed at doing that several times now.

Now picture the next situation:
You leap up the hill.
You activate sac, next to a normally unreachable shield.
Referee sees it, but according to you has to warn you by stating rule etc etc....
While the referee types all that, you leap down to that shield and sac it.
Referee warns, but is already to late. You have taken their shield down and half the human falls quickly to summoners.

Referees will not always babysit the game as they also want to play. Sure he should have explained better afterward, but you being in such position can quickly lead to a fucked up game!
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Hakugei
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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2012, 05:54:40 pm »

My bad, then they are indeed on Newerth as well. :p
Who'd have thought!
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Darth
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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2012, 09:02:33 pm »

Was searching for "rules" word in topic names them for server rules, my bad. :p
Fellas, I appreciate you try and find weakspots in my points.
What can you add on my main message (see at the end of the post)?

Haku, I am happy to see you got accepted one of my points.
(Will never agree about bad guy tho. Rules were made partly to try and cover bad guys, but there can never be 100% coverage.)
I want to make a little correction. I never claimed refs have to be walking rule-o-matic that spam them in chat. There will be example below.

Quote
but according to you has to warn you by stating rule etc etc....
Haha, that would be a complete disaster! No, my friend, joking aside we all understand its a preventive slay for sure.
This is exactly what I'm against: referees not understanding what's their role. If you ask me about your current example it would be simple:
  • If ref sees him activating sac he insta-slays, this is totally clear. If guy asks why - ref answers.
  • If ref sees him standing there he might want to warn: any bad thing and you are blacklisted on sight.
Explanation CAN be given after a preventive slay and HAS to be done before kick.

As for my case, according to what ref wanted (he had apathic attitude afaik), he should have said:
"Concerning the mid hill: I don't have time to monitor the hill 24/7 so anyone getting up will be slain"
On my questioning he should answer:
"I don't care what you do, I know a player from hill can fuck up the game and that is enough for me, as you can not have any legal business there"
What would you do in such case? Only Moxy said his word so far.

This difference in ref behavior has great impact.

It is important to me what do you think about statements below, because it is general message of this thread I want to deliver.
1. Ref goal/target is not to punish rulebreaks, but to provide fairplay. Rules are one of their reason tools.
This is very delicate, I'm not saying punishing is bad in general, its just not the ref's target, but a method.
2. Ref's actions should aim in the future.
After a well done refing, a player will act better. After bad refing, "ref abuse" thread appears.
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Daemon
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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2012, 10:27:56 pm »

You're splitting hairs, Darth. Let it go.
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Moxy
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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2012, 08:56:19 am »

so i take it to u want to know what each ref would of done, why i dont know but for now i will humor you.

Now if i was in spec and i could watch you 100% of the time i would just leave u up there as what i original said, you wernt doing harm to the game there is no need to slay

However! this is where my answer gets complicated, if i was in spec sure if would of left u up there, but if i was on a team anbd playing, then i would of done what the othger ref did and instant slayed.

my defence of this is that its to prevent any harmful damage you could be causing or could of caused in the future. A refs job is to prevent anything that will lead to an unfair game by using exploits, or braking server rules. like groent said. in the time it takes to warn you, or type what the rule say's, you could of done some unfair harm to the other team, when ref is playing, they cant see exactly what u are doing or what your intentions are, and by asking or citing the rule you could of already done some harmful damage to the team so the correct thing to do to make sure the game stay's fair and even is to instant slay you, and then xplain why afterwards.
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