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Author Topic: Cool thread split from XR 1.0 Feedback thread where SR devs act all righteous  (Read 18241 times)
biggeruniverse
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« on: November 20, 2012, 03:14:37 pm »

I would think the XR devs would be a little more supportive of Feathers issue, since there's so many unexplained timeouts and crashes lately. The mac voip bug is just one of them, but there are certainly others. Is it fair to the players that the game is unreliable?

[edited new thread title]
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 05:56:42 pm by Daemon » Logged


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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2012, 03:54:12 pm »

I would think trolls and thieves would remain under their bridges instead of inciting the very users they've bailed on years ago, against the very game they had stolen, and which they had delayed for years before that as well. But they don't, they just mimick empathy towards the same community they flamed and mocked whenever pertinent issues like +0.5 melee swing duration bugs were reported.
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Feathers
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2012, 04:50:12 pm »

and lets back on topic.
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Hakugei
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2012, 07:32:23 pm »

I would think the XR devs would be a little more supportive of Feathers issue, since there's so many unexplained timeouts and crashes lately. The mac voip bug is just one of them, but there are certainly others. Is it fair to the players that the game is unreliable?
XR1.0 is the most reliable XR version around.
Do you know what changed? You left and your code was removed.  Grin
Funny how things work out.


And Feathers, the problem of a single player's internet connection does not excuse unbalancing teams and thus harming a lot of other players. Even more so if this offers refs a way to abuse power. I've seen switchteam being used for reasons other than time outs (yes, even on G&G, which has strict reffing rules; let alone the abuse friendly US server).

It is always better to prevent abuse than having to punish it afterwards.

So, I ask you, is the single and rare plight of one person worth harming everyone else around him?


PROTIP: Get better internet.
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Feathers
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2012, 10:45:39 pm »

And Feathers, the problem of a single player's internet connection does not excuse unbalancing teams and thus harming a lot of other players. Even more so if this offers refs a way to abuse power. I've seen switchteam being used for reasons other than time outs (yes, even on G&G, which has strict reffing rules; let alone the abuse friendly US server).

This is purely up to an server admin, he/she chooses what commands a referee can have and what action to take if a ref abuses.
But above all this has nothing to do with referee abusing (which, why do you care if you quit the game?) it's about allowing comanders to retake there seat if they time-out or crash. Which not allowing them back in to the team harms the game even more.

So, I ask you, is the single and rare plight of one person worth harming everyone else around him?
Why did you put this? It doesn't even make sense in this topic.

PROTIP: Get better internet.
Not everyone is as lucky as you and me, with a decent connection...this reminds me about you moaning after NSL4 when you were forced to play on the US Match server, you are being stubborn and you are not taking over people into consideration.
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Groentjuh
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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2012, 12:31:06 am »

It is always better to prevent abuse than having to punish it afterwards.
That IS SUCH a silly statement! Have you looked at what commands XR 1.0 ships with? No? I would look at all of them before saying that again.

Anyway, who defines what abuse of referee commands is? I believe server administrators decide the rules for the server's players and also for the server's referees. As feathers is pointing out, there are valid situations to use that command. It's one of the commands that is used for a lot of things.
Normal referee's use it as a tiny kick by moving a player 3 times to spectator which result in this player no longer being able to join for a short amount of time due to changing team to much.
God-referees use it to unstuck players by moving players to the same team they already are in. They will lose their equipment, but not all their money like with /kill.
It is also often used to put a commander back into his team like feather posted in his previous post. Having no commander ruins a game more then having a 2 player difference between the 2 team. This difference is barely noticeable when you there are 40 players playing.
I have heard complains that recent patch made commanders lag out more often when the game starts. In such situations it is nice if a referee can quickly put this command into his seat without having to restart and wait for the warm-up to finish.
I do not say all the switchteam commands referee do are according to the guideline for them, but these uses are far more important for me then a referee switchteaming himself or someone else to a stacked team.

You know I want this fixed as well and you have done that partly for me. What you are saying here however is not something I will accept. There are limitations to that fix you are not telling here. There are reasons you are not telling here.

The cover-up saying: referee's abuse this command so it should be restricted and server administrators cannot control their referees is bullshit. XR gives referees a SHITLOAD of power. That is what they are made for!

While you taking up the function of restricting and managing referees, please noticed that Server admin cannot restict their god-referee because nobody bothered to make switches for god-referee command like for normal referees. Also requests to just move the whole referee command block into python like SR has done, have not been done.

I have reconsidered the state and value of the last server patches XR has released. I believe not all of those were as stable as you say XR is. I also believe they added very little value. That some of them introduce some bugs(team balance?) cannot be denied.
In this new reconsideration I've included recent events. I have decided I will "fix" this issue temporary. I hope the kongor release does not require new binaries otherwise it may take a while!
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 12:40:22 am by Groentjuh » Logged


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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2012, 02:43:07 am »

@Feathers
This is purely up to an server admin, he/she chooses what commands a referee can have and what action to take if a ref abuses.
Actually, most games do not leave it up to the server admins. Rolleyes
This counts for Groent's post, too. A lot of games give server admins a bare minimum of options.
Especially you should know how much a server admin can customize freely.
Hell, you keep asking for more options, too. Grin

Why did you put this? It doesn't even make sense in this topic.
So either you didn't understand the point or you're avoiding the answer.

Not everyone is as lucky as you and me, with a decent connection
Then you have bigger worries than not being able to claim your comm victory.

...this reminds me about you moaning after NSL4 when you were forced to play on the US Match server, you are being stubborn and you are not taking over people into consideration.
US Server has nothing to do with it. Grin A good connection won't time out on either server; we're not talking about pings here.



@Groentjuh
That IS SUCH a silly statement! Have you looked at what commands XR 1.0 ships with? No? I would look at all of them before saying that again.
Yes, I've heard about the things you've done with them.
Like steal people's account passwords. Good times.
I didn't add those "features"; shall I remove them?  Afro
You are absolutely correct; you should not have those powers; but how does this excuse refs having powers?

Normal referee's use it as a tiny kick by moving a player 3 times to spectator which result in this player no longer being able to join for a short amount of time due to changing team to much.
Works just fine. Switching to spec is not affected.

God-referees use it to unstuck players by moving players to the same team they already are in. They will lose their equipment, but not all their money like with /kill.
Good point. That comes in handy.

It is also often used to put a commander back into his team like feather posted in his previous post. Having no commander ruins a game more then having a 2 player difference between the 2 team. This difference is barely noticeable when you there are 40 players playing.
If the match is even, there shouldn't ever be a time when a team is up 2 players after losing a player. That would mean 3 players up. And if you're that far ahead, you're likely winning. It's not like the commander seat is disabled for anyone else to jump in. So you're exaggerating the matter.

I have heard complains that recent patch made commanders lag out more often when the game starts.
I have not heard of this, and I kept checking daily after the patches went out. (Even asking for feedback.)
If you genuinely believe the newest patches influence this, compile a sample and a proper bug report instead of whining and hoping it miraculously happens by itself.

I do not say all the switchteam commands referee do are according to the guideline for them, but these uses are far more important for me then a referee switchteaming himself or someone else to a stacked team.
This is your opinion and I shall accept that as such.

You know I want this fixed as well and you have done that partly for me. What you are saying here however is not something I will accept. There are limitations to that fix you are not telling here. There are reasons you are not telling here.
I haven't mentioned the limitation because it's a temporary thing. When I get around to adjusting the ref command itself (remember, my PC isn't available right now), the only limitation it will have is that non-XR1.0 clients can't be switched to a team from spec. This doesn't affect any of your wishes.
I offered a quick temporary fix without allowing abuse of non-XR1.0 clients. Though, as no one built new bins, it didn't even matter. By the looks of it, no one will put together an AU until my PC is returned anyway. Rolleyes
Most people here may not know this, but Groentjuh also has access to the code - he could easily fix stuff himself.

The cover-up saying: referee's abuse this command so it should be restricted and server administrators cannot control their referees is bullshit. XR gives referees a SHITLOAD of power. That is what they are made for!
It's not a cover-up, as it's already fixed. Wink Go build an AU. The current messy fix with the limitation you speak of can easily be worked around by joining the enemy team and then being swapped. It's not rocket science; anyone could have figured that one out. If this feature is that important to you, you wouldn't mind working around it until someone finishes it.
Simply put; I don't see it as a bug that refs can't abuse a command anymore. (But that should have been obvious from my previous posts.)

While you taking up the function of restricting and managing referees, please noticed that Server admin cannot restict their god-referee because nobody bothered to make switches for god-referee command like for normal referees. Also requests to just move the whole referee command block into python like SR has done, have not been done.
So on one hand you're complaining that refs are not omnipotent, while on the other hand you're complaining that you can't restrict their powers. Pure genius. Grin
Also, I'm not an XR Dev - go bother someone else with your wishes.  Rolleyes
Or host an SR server for all I care. Afro
But on a more serious note; you want god-refs to work like normal refs? (But seperate cvars.)

I have reconsidered the state and value of the last server patches XR has released. I believe not all of those were as stable as you say XR is.
They didn't affect XR stability in the least.  Grin
I made sure to check every day; even asked all the players on G&G.
Servers were just fine.

I also believe they added very little value.
XR1.0 enforcement doesn't add any gameplay value. No one ever claimed it does.
What it did was ensure fairer gameplay.
What it did was ensure public servers are now on the production branch.
What it did was ensure Devs have an easier time testing their experimental code.
Which, if you think about it, increases stability for players and servers for future dev-ing.
Yet it does not add any gameplay value itself.
So how is this relevant?
If you want to be picky, some of it gave Evolution and future modders more options.

That some of them introduce some bugs(team balance?) cannot be denied.
No one denied that. Bugs are one of the reasons why this big mandatory patch was introduced - public servers to be peacefully playing on production while devs can actually test bugs seperately. It took not even 5 minutes to fix the bug in the code. It took a lot longer for anyone to even bother reporting the bug. Afro Why didn't a server admin, ref or player inform me sooner? But since you reverted the bins anyway, I didn't put out a new AU to fix it right away. Instead, I took care of more tasks before shipping it all together as an AU.

In this new reconsideration I've included recent events. I have decided I will "fix" this issue temporary.
Actually, why don't you build new bins? As already mentioned before; you have access to the code. I do not know if you have access to the buildhosts, but you're only one step away from that - asking your boss for it. Instead of whining from the backrow, why don't you step up to the plate and do something for once? Smiley


Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll let the actual XR Devs handle XR. Fair enough? Wink
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biggeruniverse
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2012, 03:44:48 am »

Also, I'm not an XR Dev - go bother someone else with your wishes.  Rolleyes
Or host an SR server for all I care. Afro

He does, actually- "Groentjuh's Garage". Pretty good ping for EU players...
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2012, 04:11:42 am »

Excellent; Groent's problem is then solved.
Move to SR. Smiley
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Groentjuh
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2012, 08:46:01 am »

Not everyone is as lucky as you and me, with a decent connection
Then you have bigger worries than not being able to claim your comm victory.
Nice personal attack towards feathers... It is not unthinkable that a commander times out. Most of these commanders return quickly and do want to try and still get their win. If some stupid person joined their team while their are timed out, that team could be 1 up (20 vs 21 -> comm times out -> 20 vs 20 -> player joins the team -> 20 vs 21 -> commander cannot join back in quickly.)
And even if a team has more players, because players of the other team left, I still do not believe commanders shouldn't be able to rejoin their team then. Commanders ARE important in this game!
Yes, I've heard about the things you've done with them.
Like steal people's account passwords. Good times.
I didn't add those "features"; shall I remove them?  Afro
You are absolutely correct; you should not have those powers; but how does this excuse refs having powers?
Ah, you missed other of my accomplishments if that is the scariest. That ability does have very little to do with referees as well. The feature that should actually blocked there is not the python stuff, but the fact I CAN EXECUTE COMMANDS CLIENTSIDE AT ALL! As you can see: has nothing to do with referees! But that is offtopic, because it has nothing to do with the ref switchteam thing.
If the match is even, there shouldn't ever be a time when a team is up 2 players after losing a player. [...]. So you're exaggerating the matter.
See example above...
I haven't mentioned the limitation because it's a temporary thing. When I get around to adjusting the ref command itself (remember, my PC isn't available right now), the only limitation it will have is that non-XR1.0 clients can't be switched to a team from spec. This doesn't affect any of your wishes.
I offered a quick temporary fix without allowing abuse of non-XR1.0 clients. Though, as no one built new bins, it didn't even matter. By the looks of it, no one will put together an AU until my PC is returned anyway. Rolleyes
Most people here may not know this, but Groentjuh also has access to the code - he could easily fix stuff himself.
Having access to the repository and access to the code does not mean I can easily fix stuff. Knowing that fix is going to be made(I mean all switchteam move with older clients as only restriction) is all feathers and I requested.

Why does that need to create so much drama? I could probably comment on lots of other things in your post, but I do not believe either of us should spend so much time into writing pointless walls of text.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 10:05:44 am by Groentjuh » Logged


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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2012, 10:29:10 am »

Knowing that fix is going to be made(I mean all switchteam move with older clients as only restriction) is all feathers and I requested.

Nice stirring up shit over an issue i've already told you and valli about being fixed in the code almost 3 weeks ago, Groen. The exact date is "Sat Nov 03 2012". I've also told you that Clemens can't build and i will PM Mohican about it. I also instructed you and valli to PM Mohican about any bug fixing which involves recompiling because Clemens can't do it. Do you want me to post IRC logs? Even Clemens' revision comments were pasted there.

Oh and Groen, good job with the SR server. Talking about questionable morality and the supporting of thieves, trolls and bullies. I guess if XR was a car, you would be building race tracks for those that stole it from you.
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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2012, 11:10:59 am »

Oh and Groen, good job with the SR server. Talking about questionable morality and the supporting of thieves, trolls and bullies. I guess if XR was a car, you would be building race tracks for those that stole it from you.

This will be offtopic, feel free to delete it if you want:
Groen hosted that server long ago, I think even before big announced SR, but I'm not sure. Those who started up SR could clearly see "Groentjuh's Garage". I can somehow understand your hate against biggeruniverse, but I just don't get why you accuse everyone who supports SR in some way of being a "thief, troll and bully".
But as I said, feel free to delete this post, it has nothing to do with "Report XR1 1.0 Feedback".
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2012, 12:12:54 pm »

You know. We are working really hard to make core savage again with SR. We want to bring it back to its roots. And doing so to bring over the crowd and have some nice populated servers. We haven't even started trying to do that but the way you all act, very immaturely and arrogant, we see more and more people contact us on where we are. You all need to grow up.

And we didn't steal. But keep that stance, I'm sure adding that to the end of your posts that attack people on this forum, even the ones who just want Savage to be played for years - so they will offer hosting wherever they can out of their own pocket, will make you superior to the other guys (the ones who "stole") who act professionally and work together like a real indie team and support anyone who comes their way. Keep that up buddy.

We just hope that all your bullying and abusing of the community and bringing out buggy builds won't scare everyone away before we are ready to start marketing. So please, tone it down a little and stop abusing anyone who doesn't agree with you.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 12:23:31 pm by Robbo » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2012, 01:05:42 pm »

So please, tone it down a little and stop abusing anyone who doesn't agree with you.

You mean like Biggeruniverse? Exactly how many defamatory posts have i made on SR forums, the way he does on XR's?

And we didn't steal.

Keep on lying, liar. It's kinda like romantic justice, even your app icon is made by me for XR.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[edit]P.S.: Lookie heer @ how biggeruniverse acts as any gentle and caring admins should: http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,11009.0.html[/edit]
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 01:08:51 pm by Daemon » Logged

Hakugei
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« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2012, 02:08:20 pm »

Nice personal attack towards feathers... It is not unthinkable that a commander times out. Most of these commanders return quickly and do want to try and still get their win. If some stupid person joined their team while their are timed out, that team could be 1 up (20 vs 21 -> comm times out -> 20 vs 20 -> player joins the team -> 20 vs 21 -> commander cannot join back in quickly.)
If that's your biggest problem, have a spec temporarily join the other team to even it up (ref /switchteam can do that just fine, remember?) and you can force your comm back. You can even place the former spec back into spec. Was that so hard? You keep making it sound as if basic logic is too difficult to grasp and the whole game is broken now. Grin

Ah, you missed other of my accomplishments if that is the scariest. That ability does have very little to do with referees as well. The feature that should actually blocked there is not the python stuff, but the fact I CAN EXECUTE COMMANDS CLIENTSIDE AT ALL! As you can see: has nothing to do with referees! But that is offtopic, because it has nothing to do with the ref switchteam thing.
You brought it up as off-topic; don't go feigning ignorance now. :p
If I recall, you could delete files on people's systems as well. Smiley
If I'm not mistaken, this information is hidden from the public; e.g. from peasants like me; so I can only pick from long-term memory. Afro Would you kindly share the private collection of your illicit deeds?

Having access to the repository and access to the code does not mean I can easily fix stuff.
Actually, just fixing that part is one of the easier tasks. And I know you know your way around code and commands; it would very well be possible for you. Especially if it's something that important to you to cause a scene around.

Knowing that fix is going to be made(I mean all switchteam move with older clients as only restriction) is all feathers and I requested.
It was planned back then already; I'm just not willing to set up this uncomfortable laptop as a full base. Grin I'd rather wait until I get my old equipment back. But between you and me, if it's that desperate, all you would have to do, is remove the temporary fix and copy-paste the XR1.0 check and change a single boolean in the old reverted switchteam line. It wouldn't be clean (and still temporary), but it would work as intended until I get around to making the proper version.

Why does that need to create so much drama?
You tell me; you butted in with a wall of nonsense. :p
(Whereas Feathers just has a problem with me, so he tries to fight me over nothing and everything. He might be best ignored.)
My previous posts merely debated that what you guys see as a bug, I see as the way it should have been in the first place. :p
I even made sure to let you know a temporary fix is in place despite my view on the matter; and I do leave comments inside the code and on the svn for more information. Grin So, yes, ask yourself why you created so much drama.


So this is the conclusion:
  • Either fix it yourself - an actual Dev with code access and enough knowledge to accomplish the goal.
  • Either wait until my PC is restored - a retired Dev.
  • Or send me the related files (as I offered a few posts back already) so I can remotely fix it. This still means YOU have to build new bins for an AU, though.

Not good enough? Well, too bad; you're kind of screwed then.
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