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Author Topic: S32: Electric tech reworked  (Read 5568 times)
Daemon
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« on: June 18, 2012, 08:19:11 am »

Suggested by: Tirza

Elec tech tree

The precise change you wanna see done, including exact values and item/unit names etc.
- Discharger ammo decreased from 20 to 16 (old damage per ammo: 3000, new 2400)
- Flux ammo decreased from 250 to 230 (old damage per ammo: 3000, new: 2760), 10% slow down stays, stamina drain removed.
- Pulse ammo increased from 25 to 30 (old damage per ammo: 2625, new: 3150)
- Disrupter: increased building damage (8 disrupters to kill a spire)

What triggered it (what is the CAUSE that made you think of something to eliminate that cause)
Discharger ammo and damage per load is definitely too much for its tier. You will never run out of ammo anyways. Flux is the best ranged weapon in the game, and also very overused. It's stamina drain is very annoying although necessary as long as sac isn't nerfed. Pulse gun isn't used much, mostly because of storm shield completely eliminating damage for a limited time, also the slower projectiles make it a bit harder to hit. Once a spire is up protecting a sublair, humans have to wait for siege because there's no way to damage buildings early game (if they don't totally outskill the other team) unless they go chem, while Beasts have frostbolts, ember and blaze that all deal a fair amount of building damage. Buffing disrupters in terms of building damage would do the trick.


The predicted overall effect of your change (its PURPOSE).
Less dominant early game killing with elec but more demolishing potential. More varied late game. Generally people won't use flux for everything anymore, there are various other weapons for specific purposes.


The impact on the game:
What will become harder (or easier) to do, and for whom (units, teams etc).
A bit harder to kill saccers (which are nerfed already). Requires a bit better ammo management. Will be easier to kill spires early game.


The ripple effect
Subsequent changes needed to tone down (compensate for) the effects of this change.
Stalker melee range increase from 20 to 28 (will become a deadly melee unit, a viable alternative to tempest camping)
Reducing max HP of units using Sac and Frenzy at the same time by 30%
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Daemon
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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 08:23:20 am »

What i see here is nerfing Elec, since 5 pulse ammo more 'in compensation' is irrelevant, plus turning each tech into a siege tech... yay for diversity.
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H3027
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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2012, 08:41:09 am »

It's not only 5 pulse ammo more, it's also 20 flux ammo less which matter for how often pulse will be used.

And yes, extremely limited demolition power early game for humans is one of the problems in Savage. Keep in mind that Beasts have 2 tech trees that are great for killing AND destroying buildings early game, while Humans always have to camp base and wait for siege ballista unless they take the high risk of going chem.

Elec and Mag aren't too strong against Buildings even with the changes - now you just aren't as much forced to stay at the base and wait for ballista as soon as rush sub + spire are up. Chem will always be the first choice when it comes to demolishing stuff.
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Daemon
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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 10:12:58 am »

Beasts have 2 tech trees that are great for killing AND destroying buildings early game

Which are?
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H3027
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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 11:17:08 am »

Beasts have 2 tech trees that are great for killing AND destroying buildings early game

Which are?


Fire and strata - even entropy isn't that bad when we consider tier 2.

I realized that the building/siege/unit pierce values in the objects files and strategy guide are often wrong because Uttar hardcoded many of them, while keeping everyone unaware what the exact numbers are. So I tested them in game:



Frostbolts combined with the positional advantage of beast mobility bring down towers with ease in early game (frostbolts can kill a guard tower with 12 shots in 12 seconds).
Ember is very strong against towers (kills a tower with 15 shots in 10 seconds, and that from safer range than frostbolts), so is obviously blaze and sac.
Chaos bolt brings the tower down to 50% in 11 seconds. And even surge can bring down unshielded towers relatively quickly when teaming up (one surge with full mana kills 30% of a tower in 5 seconds).

Demolition power in a nutshell:
Strata: strong early game, then useless
Fire: strong
Entropy: medium tier 1, then medium/strong


Now lets have a look at humans:
Scattergun: useless against buildings without leap, also has a too high weapon switch time to hit, block tower shots, hit again.
Repeater: almost useless too
Discharger: can kill a spire with 15 shots in 22.5 seconds (slow, can be repaired easily)
Flux: can kill a spire in a bit more than 20 seconds (slow, can be repaired easily)
Incinerator: almost useless against spires
Mortar and Launcher: strong

Human demolition power in a nutshell:
Mag: useless
Elec: weak/medium
Chem: tier 1 useless, then strong
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 11:20:21 am by H3027 » Logged



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Daemon
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 01:21:03 pm »

Strata may have "strong demolition power" on paper. In the real world, you never see scavs killing towers with frost bolts. That's why your attempt to re-write the game is so far-fetched, because you're using lab conditions, not practical ones, for your suggestions.

And you're still ignoring the psychological effect. Which is very important, because it's what drives ppl to do anything. If, for instance, hums think their base is fragile (like after nerfing the shield effect) and won't survive without them defending, they will be even more reluctant to go out and leave it unprotected. Especially when you actually nerf their offensive capabilities just as much, if not more!
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H3027
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2012, 01:34:23 pm »

I can tell from my clanwar and pub experience that killing towers with frostbolts is a very common tactic.

The psychological effect can be based on any changes. Scattergun, Repeater and Coil have all been improved. It's just when the human team sucks and Beasts siege the base for hours, the stronger team is more likely going to win instead of drawing. It's more up to the players now.
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Daemon
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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2012, 01:38:21 pm »

Stop repeating repeater was improved! It wasn't! You never ran out of ammo with rep and ammo pack, yet now it takes 25% longer to kill anything! How is that improved?
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H3027
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« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2012, 01:47:38 pm »

Stop repeating repeater was improved! It wasn't! You never ran out of ammo with rep and ammo pack, yet now it takes 25% longer to kill anything! How is that improved?

The accuracy is a lot better on long range targets. I agree, if 25% less damage is the optimal value is questionable. But you certainly get in what direction I suggest Repeater to change.
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First Witch: When shall we three meet again / In thunder, lightning, or in rain?
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« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2012, 02:38:42 pm »

I would suggest to look at such tech as: melee +  flux+ coil+ scatergun+ temprest + some others  as  a "bounded counter tech", "reference tech" "zero point "  which already are well balanced each other.... because if we start to re-balance it- we will never get balance, maximum- in best case- we will get completely new game, new mod , something like samurai wars Smiley
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genoism
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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2014, 10:35:06 pm »

elec is probably the most balanced tree in the game, don't touch it please.
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