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Author Topic: S29: Making chem as useful as fire  (Read 3785 times)
Daemon
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« on: June 14, 2012, 01:30:18 pm »

Suggested by: H3027

The precise change you wanna see done, including exact values and item/unit names etc.
Tier 1: Increase incinerators projectile speed a lot and the range a bit. (a bit like a short range blaze)
Switching launcher with mortar in the tech tree.
Tier 2: Increase launcher fire rate a little bit, almost double projectile speed, but reduce splash a lot (because it's damn annoying as low tier unit when splash damage throws you contantly out of the line) and damage down to 140 (old Launcher was 220 damage).
Tier 3: Lower mortar fire rate a lot (1 shot every 2 seconds), but increase splash and building damage (4 hits to kill a spire, 480 building damage, launcher had 385 before, spire has 1500 HP).

2. What triggered it (what is the CAUSE that made you think of something to eliminate that cause)
Beasts can use any tech tree as their primary one without major disadvantage depending on the opponents tech. Humans on the other hand can only use elec or mag, using chem as primary tech tree is extremely risky and works only in very few situations.

3. The predicted overall effect of your change (its PURPOSE).
Chem will become a viable option as primary tech tree, able to kill and counter a sac rush while still dealing some building damage in early game. Mortar would be the new non-vehicle alternative for cata, a weapon for massive bombardement in late game. Humans will be more confident with offensive tactics, the overall gameplay will be more interesting.


The impact on the game:
4. What will become harder (or easier) to do, and for whom (units, teams etc).
It will add more variety to the gameplay, more strategic options for the commander.
Gives Humans as many options early game as Beasts.

5. Will it make the game harder or easier for newbies (vs. veterans), and why.
Easier for newbies as they tend to pick chem weapons most while not realizing that they are useless for anything but buildings.


The ripple effect
6. Subsequent changes needed to tone down (compensate for) the effects of this change.
Increase the building damage of Fireball (tier 3 fire) to that of Mortar (tier 3 chem)

7. Other changes, which the current suggestion would benefit from or depends on (so it can work properly).
Boost Entropy (increase chaos bolt damage, increase surge mana, make rupture able to disable upgraded defense towers for 1 second, except shield).
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Feathers
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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2012, 03:14:54 pm »

Its nice to see chemical tech tree improved, but this still will never stop a sac rush with Tier One chemical weapons, but it will make counter-rushes more interesting and more often.

Whats the rate-of-fire for rupture at the moment? One second disabling an upgraded tower seems pointlessly ineffective, if the rate-of-fire is over one second. Plus human commanders prefer to build more than one tower together, so you stop the firing one but the other five hit you. And on top of that for the new rupture you proposed would require even more teamwork in public games (But we can dream, right?  Tongue)

Other-wise nice proposal.
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H3027
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« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2012, 03:28:07 pm »

Incinerator with a bit longer range and faster projectiles could stop a sac rush. The faster projectiles make a big difference there. Also launcher will be a good weapon for killing with the faster projectile speed.

Rupture firing speed is 1-1.2 s, you would be able to disable a mortar tower for 10 seconds.
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« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2012, 04:41:29 pm »

Boosting the incinerator would solve an old riddle for me. This weapon is 99.5% useless as it is now...
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Nezzy!
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« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2012, 07:43:33 pm »

New to this whole discussion thing I read them just dont post but the one real niggle I have here is increasing surge mana  Shocked Surge is crippling on its own against a newbie lego for example so say people start to use surge more often in that respect it might make the newbies leave ofc it would only be a minor number but still... and imagine 10 players all using surge. Sorry I'm probably assuming too much but how much of a mana increase are we talking?
Nez.
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Necrofears
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2012, 05:36:20 pm »

on incin:

I believe there is a 99.5% concensus that this needs to be improved.

on enth weapons:

chaos bolt - has the longest range of tier 1 beast weapons, I think it's fine
surge - it probably needs more mana but as is it is more devastating than flux just runs out fast.
rupture - really does need to be improved especially considering it's a tier 3 weapon.

other chem weapons:

mortar - it's a great tier 2 weapon it's just not designed for anti personnel, the bouncing makes it really unique though
launcher - launcher is actually a damn good tier 3 weapon as is, try fighting with it. it has no real advantage over fireball and both fireball and launcher suffer from the same problem they are tier 3 weapons that have their main effective use canceled out by a tier 2 tower.

chem v fire:

the main problem is the incin factor, it is a god awful weapon while ember is very useful. another reason fire is so much more effective is that the main counter for sac is a tier 2 tower. lets face facts most of that initial Pmine effort on hums is to get a shield tower up before sac comes out. a real kick in the sac rush shin would be to reverse sac/demo with wards/mines. now we have a new game.
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H3027
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2012, 10:04:18 am »

@Necrofears:

The mortar weapon mechanics would stay the same in my suggestion. And yes, wind spires will have to be destroyed with other methods first in late game. Early game wind spires are quite nasty indeed, if Humans can't destroy the spire with chem in time they would have to wait for ballista (which is the case already anyway with all other tech trees).

Switching the 2 chem and fire items would make Savage boring and less dynamic. I think early game demolition power is something that makes the game really exciting.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 02:18:32 pm by H3027 » Logged



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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2012, 02:29:00 pm »

I think chem tier2 and tier3 we should leave without changes...for me it looks  balanced enough.

about incinerator, i was suggested many times:

add poison/burning effect for about 1-1.5 sec, stacked! , so if your aim is good or many humans hit one target- every poison effect multiplied , target's HP going down dramatically.

maybe good to increase damage to buildings.
Its nice to see chemical tech tree improved, but this still will never stop a sac rush with Tier One chemical weapons, but it will make counter-rushes more interesting and more often.
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