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Author Topic: S24: Ranged siege units gold gain/drop related changes  (Read 5552 times)
Daemon
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« on: March 04, 2012, 04:11:58 pm »

Suggested by: Various contributors

The re-balancing suggestion:

1. The precise change you wanna see done, including exact values and item/unit names etc.
- Ballis, Catas and Summoners should receive more gold when attacking buildings. (~1.5x)
- Upon ejecting from a human siege unit (balli/catapult), a random amount of goodies are dropped (similar to a nomad's).

2. What triggered it (what is the CAUSE that made you think of something to eliminate that cause)
Given the widely spread idea of ranged siege units, especially ballis and summs, being used for camping and whoring rather than attacking buildings, incentives must be employed for the players to start using them more for what they were designed.

3. The predicted overall effect of your change (its PURPOSE).
- Although it will not impact the actual fighting balance of the game (i.e. 1h1k shots), if the correct gold income multiplier is used, players will seek to use the siege units for killing buildings AND making a profit, as opposed to simply walking to certain death quickly followed by bankruptcy, which is kinda what happens now, unless they start whoring.
- Whereas beasts, exposing themselves to instant deaths while blazing siege, will get small, but much deserved rewards when nomads eject from 8000 gold units w/ 5% HP.

The impact on the game:

4. What will become harder/easier to do, and for whom (units, teams etc).
-It will be easier for siege unit players to sustain their attacks, by retaking siege, upon successfully hitting enemy buildings.
-It will also make kamikaze blazing of human siege units be worth a little more when humans eject instead of dying.

5. Will it make the game harder or easier for newbies (vs. veterans), and why.
This is perhaps a good way to promote the use of siege vs. buildings, instead of units, from a newbie P.o.V.

The ripple effect

6. Subsequent changes needed to tone down (compensate for) the effects of this change.
None i can think of. Perhaps raising the demo charge (and sacrifice) gold income as well, for the same reasons?

7. Other changes, which the current suggestion would benefit from or depends on (so it can work properly).
The implementation of an algorithm for differentiated/customized gold income for hitting buildings.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 04:16:08 pm by Daemon » Logged

Hakugei
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« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2012, 09:36:27 pm »

I support this, as already stated in the other thread.

Part1: This "should" motivate the one or other to attack buildings or at least give the option to siege more often.
Part2: While this should help reward players defending against siege. You already don't get a kill, but at least now you get gold/mana back.
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Zackorrigan
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2012, 04:47:00 pm »

I support this, as already stated in the other thread.

Part1: This "should" motivate the one or other to attack buildings or at least give the option to siege more often.
Part2: While this should help reward players defending against siege. You already don't get a kill, but at least now you get gold/mana back.

At start my motivation was for the part 2 to giving reward to guys who don't farm but defend their base:)
but like haku said it will be nice to have siege weapons more used against building Cheesy
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Gridfon
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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2012, 06:35:32 pm »

- Ballis, Catas and Summoners should receive more gold when attacking buildings. (~1.5x)

To be honest this suggestion reminds me about spherical cow in a vacuum. I can't see a way this is going to improve gameplay.
  • I can't remember any situations when a ballista/catapult needs to choose between shooting buildings or shooting units. If the human siege is within the range of the building - it shoots buildings, haven't seen otherwise. Unless the siege needs to kill a particular unit (i.e. sometimes - blazer, more often - a rabid pred) for self-defense. But there's not a lot of choice here either.

    In no way this will give any incentive to change the game style. The ones which camp - usually do that safely, as close to the spawn point as possible. The ones which go for the buildings will still need to cross half the map to get till the human buildings, meanwhile shooting several players for self-defense.

    About those who go half the map to reach buildings. When they do succeed at that - most of the times they get enough gold for the next run anyway. And when they fail in the middle of the map - this change won't help them.

  • About summoners I'm not nearly as sure. They are indeed very often camping within the reach of human (usually: shielded) buildings. This change might as well increase the amount of suicide summoners who actually try to go forward and kill the shield before being shot by coil. But I suspect that won't change it for most of the summs. In the best case they will do 2-3 more shots on the building to get the gold and then proceed to camp units.

In the end it's all about whether the particular siege player is a team player or simply a camper.

- Upon ejecting from a human siege unit (balli/catapult), a random amount of goodies are dropped (similar to a nomad's).

On the contrary, this suggestion seems half-decent. But still, from what I see, the biggest arguments against killing human siege are "I came here for fun (i.e. rabid pred), not to blaze siege all game long" and "No way I'm getting bad stats because of blazing siege". The change will be helpful for team players who are already hunting the siege right now. But it's unlikely to affect anyone else.

Now this is off-topic, but I think the best way to reduce siege camping and increase team playing is to NOT count the kills done by siege. However, I think the deaths from siege still need to be counted. Not so sure about that either.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 06:38:41 pm by Gridfon » Logged
Necrofears
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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2012, 07:33:46 pm »

To be honest this suggestion reminds me about spherical cow in a vacuum. I can't see a way this is going to improve gameplay.
  • I can't remember any situations when a ballista/catapult needs to choose between shooting buildings or shooting units. If the human siege is within the range of the building - it shoots buildings, haven't seen otherwise. Unless the siege needs to kill a particular unit (i.e. sometimes - blazer, more often - a rabid pred) for self-defense. But there's not a lot of choice here either.

    In no way this will give any incentive to change the game style. The ones which camp - usually do that safely, as close to the spawn point as possible. The ones which go for the buildings will still need to cross half the map to get till the human buildings, meanwhile shooting several players for self-defense.

    About those who go half the map to reach buildings. When they do succeed at that - most of the times they get enough gold for the next run anyway. And when they fail in the middle of the map - this change won't help them.
it's very simple and logical and the spherical cow in a vacuum reference is silly.

first I want to know in what world is losing 1k gold "enough gold for the next run" because this isn't math we pulled out of our asses, if you hit only buildings with a balista you are down a little under 1K gold. you either have to request that gold from the team or go kill an NPC (how is that enough gold for another run), and thats based on the assumption you made it to the buildings, unloaded all 15 shots, and survived. baring something like 10% tax. a balista needs 267 gold net after tax to come out ahead for unloading all 15 shots and thats only by 5g.

secondly any player that can perform basic math and determin the number of balista shots required to regian all their gold, at current levels it about 20 commonly. my balista has 15 shots, well that means that irregardless of taking out buildings I won't make my gold back, so that pred, or scav, or oschore seems like a viable way to even things out. so you could increase the balistas ammunition, see how that'll reduce camping, or increase the amount of gold per shot.

also I see on a regular basis, and very frequently, a balista shooting a pred or venom scav instead of spires. it happens very often, I play humans a lot and covered many balistas that do this. and they have a very good reason to do so, it nets them more gold.

the argument is that anyone coming in to this game will very quickly determin that shooting buildings with a balista is not prohitable in any way and continued sustained assults with one is impossible even with no resistance from the beast team. Balistas are a money pit, in fact they are about the only money pit in the game unless you whore with them. and thats the reasoning behind increasing the gold from building damage.

at no point in this argument did we ever say this would reduce camping or whoring but rather incentivise hitting buildings. if for one summoner shot or balista shot the notion of taking a shot at a building instead of saving it or using it on a unit will actually be a reduction in whoring, and thats all we can hope for.[/list]
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 07:55:19 pm by Necrofears » Logged

Gridfon
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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2012, 10:29:50 pm »

first I want to know in what world is losing 1k gold "enough gold for the next run" because this isn't math we pulled out of our asses

First of all, my arguments were not based on math, rather simply on the experience. May be when you hit buildings there's always enough gold. Because the ability to get close to the beast base might mean your team is pushing enough to not be gold starved (even if that means your team is pushing on the opposite side of the map). That's assuming you do not earn the gold for a new ballista by shooting the buildings.

Secondly. I was not entirely sure about the gold gains. So I checked on the servers. On empty US Public server. On empty mpuk-1 server. On populated mpuk-2 server. And on populated G&G server.

In each of the cases I found that by doing a single shot on Nexus I get 346 gold myself and my team gets an additional 149 gold. So for doing 10 shots on Nexus and killing it I get 3460 gold and my team gets an additional 1490 gold. 4950 in total. We can even ignore the fact I had 5 more ammo left.

However, of course it depends on money tax. During the first game on G&G I was getting 346 gold for a shot. During the second game I was getting only 247 gold. I fail to understand what kind of percentage (or shaman shield?) was that. Still, the money tax does not matter. It's a team game, so count both your own gold and your teams gold. You will contribute to your team by shoting buildings and nearly always you will also be able to request the gold for a new ballista if you lack it.

Anyway, the money was by far not my main point there.

also I see on a regular basis, and very frequently, a balista shooting a pred or venom scav instead of spires. it happens very often, I play humans a lot and covered many balistas that do this. and they have a very good reason to do so, it nets them more gold.

I don't think they are shooting because of gold.

If they are shooting units in a far distance then they can't hope to pick that gold anyway, at least not themselves. So in the best case that's a self-defense against blaze-scav or rabid-pred, whoever appears to be both a big threat (when they come closer) and an easy target (because otherwise it's more wise to shoot buildings and get killed in process).

If they are shooting units in a short distance that's a self-defense which is not motivated by gold.

Siege is meant to hit buildings and you want to use every chance to actually kill the building. I totally don't see it as a way to earn gold.
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Daemon
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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2012, 10:36:53 pm »

You're going at it backwards. It's gold that you need so you can keep shooting buildings; it's not shooting buildings that you need so you can get gold.
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Necrofears
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« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2012, 06:33:07 am »

for absolute precision.

balista gold per shot is 495, which still means the only thing that you can possible hit that will yeild less gold than hitting a building is a chiperl. at 50% tax, as seems the standard now, thats 247g for the player requiring 16.1 shots to ragain all gold. 346g for 70% tax,requiring 11.5 shots unsheilded or a building and at least something else. a shaman sheild cuts gold in half and double the number of shots so thats 123g-173g so expected minimum is 23 to 32.2 shots on a shaman sheild. let me count my shots again, yup still 15.

btw 6-8 standard gold bags, or a lista accuracy of 40%-53.3% on a monkit or a scav will make back your gold.

let me do the math again, yup shooting preds is more prophitable and sustainable than buildings.

now a 1.5 multiplier to the gold. 742 base for listas 371g or 10.7 shots at 50% and 519g or 7.7 shots at 70%. if you double that with a shaman sheild thats 15.4 - 21.4. preds are probably still more prophitable but just barely and still requiring 40%-53.3% accuracy but buildings alone is now withing the relm of sustainable (maybe 1.7 multiplier we can work on the number).

I also submit currently everyone for and one person that doesn't get it, I say it's still good to go.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 07:23:32 am by Necrofears » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2012, 11:12:21 pm »

IgorS and Necrofears you're talking about true but different parameters. But i'd like to back up IgorS on this one, his parameter has more impact on the issue. The players that use siege for it's existing purpose, already do focus on buildings mainly. And gold is never actually a problem for them, but a increasing gold for them would make them efficient and, hardly but "maybe" would courage more players to using siege in their own ways.


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In the end it's all about whether the particular siege player is a team player or simply a camper.
Exactly! The two different siege player profiles have nothing in common, one of them just plays for easy kills and other one goes for the building damage which is the bloody core point of winning games in savage. apart from gold problems imho.
 
So the best solutions would be disadvantaging/discouraging siege camping,

one proposal might be not counting siege kills.
another proposal might be losing gold per siegeunit kill.
and another one would be losing gold based on the time you camp near spawnpoints.

those are but ideas that can be contributed and improved, since they're really really simple. aim of this section is to brainstorm to find solutions anyways
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Necrofears
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« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2012, 05:52:53 am »

but a increasing gold for them would make them efficient and, hardly but "maybe" would courage more players to using siege in their own ways.

that is what I have been trying to say, thanks.
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