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Author Topic: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.  (Read 22968 times)
Daemon
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« on: August 23, 2011, 08:33:27 am »

Suggested by: Various

The re-balancing suggestion:
1. The precise change you wanna see done, including exact values and item/unit names etc.
This is more of a 2 parts suggestion, really.
1. Remove Behemoth's ability to capture spawn flags, which is the reason Behes do spawn at most flags, with no intention to do siege damage and with no buildings in sight.
2. Remove Behemoth's ability to defuse Demo Charges, the ease of which is why comms and players alike spawn Behes at subs, rendering demorunning totally useless.

2. What triggered it (what is the CAUSE that made you think of something to eliminate that cause)
While there's absolutely nothing wrong, IMHO, with using any unit defensively, behe's strength is abused hard nowadays. Instead of using his high Health and Damage to bash enemy buildings, Behes are used for Spawn Point camping. Given their ability to defuse Demo Charges and to capture Spawn flags, they have became the reason for many stand-offs and draws.

3. The predicted overall effect of your change (its PURPOSE).
Basically, Behes will become more like all the other siege units, in terms of usage. No siege unit except Behe can capture spawn flags or defuse demos atm. Behe spawning to protect flags and sublairs will still be possible, but not being able to actually re-capture the Flag or defuse the Demo will be a great deterrent, and players will start spawning proper melee units.

The impact on the game:
4. What will become harder to do, and for whom (units, teams etc).
It would certainly make it harder for Beasts to kill off Demorunners and Demo charges w/ the same carefree composure they do now. They would have to spawn units that are vulnerable, as opposed to Behes, and we might see demorunning make a comeback after all. Similarly with Flags.

5. What will become easier to accomplish, and by whom.
Humans would be given their chances back. Chances to capture flags now that even tho Behes spawn to abuse flagrunners, at least they wouldn't be able to go all the way and capture the flag too. Successful Demorunning could slowly be seen again, even though there are perfect Beast counters (which no1 uses atm), as in Snare + Blaze.

6. Will it make the game harder or easier for newbies (vs. veterans), and why.
Actually lazy veteran ab00zers use this a lot more often than newbies. Not to mention clanwars, where it would still be used for lair shielding.

The ripple effect
7. Subsequent changes needed to tone down (compensate for) the effects of this change.
Given that, as Shagroth said, Uttar was messing with the game balance w/o consulting w/ anyone, and Behes weren't even able to travel through Gates or capture Flags, initially, i'd say it's damage being repaired that doesn't need any compensation.

8. Other changes, which the current suggestion would benefit from or depends on (so it can work properly).
None.

____________________________________
Final notes.

This suggestion actually stemmed by a discussion in Clans Quorum, initiated by Dervun, and which triggered quite a debate. Other aspects were being considered, like making all siege units damage their own buildings, making behe wait 30 seconds before attacking or spawning 10 seconds after clicking the spawn button, rules for moving away from subs and so on.

Since those talks were intended for settling upon a change only in clanwars, but this is a problem in pubs as well, here it is for public scrutiny.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 08:26:16 pm by Daemon » Logged

Hakugei
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« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2011, 08:52:01 am »

Here's a thought - have demo charges explode when hit by a behe. Smiley
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Trigardon
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« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2011, 10:38:05 am »

We had the 1st already, biggeruniverse implented this when he was part of the XR dev team back then. Why did you revert that anyways?
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Zaitev
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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2011, 10:43:00 am »

I'm all for this idea (removing both abilities). Arguments have all been mentioned in the first post.

This will have quite a big effect on clan wars because of the small number of players, so I suggest making it a variable in the admins.cfg so clans can agree on using it or not before they start the cw.
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Hakugei
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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2011, 10:49:59 am »

It's unlikely that there will be a server cvar to toggle.
It's either or in such an important case.
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Zaitev
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2011, 11:04:14 am »

In that case, I say remove the Behemoth all together!

Then the two abilities should be removed IMO Smiley. It's such a pain to kill one, kill two, get adrenaline, place the demo, get elec, kill three, kill four, get mag and then.. Someone spawns, takes two steps and disables it.
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Daemon
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2011, 11:43:03 am »

We had the 1st already, biggeruniverse implented this when he was part of the XR dev team back then. Why did you revert that anyways?

Because, not only that big did it without any sorts of community debate over this issue or any other re-balancing changes,  but he didn't even confer with any other admin. I had no idea that he even did this, tbh, and who knows what else he sneakily changed on a whim, w/o ppl knowing.

It's not like a community driven project can be made w/o the community. Nor that any single person is warranted enough to make balance changes on its own free will and subjective judgment.

And third of all, when big left, nothing was working and we had to revert everything to a revision like an year older, in order to make sure work can be done on a functional game, even though an older instance.
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Zackorrigan
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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2011, 11:47:55 am »

I like the idea thT the behe can't defuse demo, but i dont't like that they can't hit flag. My point of view
1. If behe can't defuse demo, you can just place demo near your flag,  so behe can't hit the flag whitout take damagr
2. Humans can eject from siege to capture  flag. So let 1 beast siege unit who can do it too.

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H3027
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2011, 11:50:49 am »

Behe faggotry is crucial in clan wars and has often lead to draws or undeserved Beast win.
Your suggestion is certainly a step into the right direction.
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Daemon
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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2011, 12:02:50 pm »

I like the idea thT the behe can't defuse demo, but i dont't like that they can't hit flag. My point of view
1. If behe can't defuse demo, you can just place demo near your flag,  so behe can't hit the flag whitout take damagr
2. Humans can eject from siege to capture  flag. So let 1 beast siege unit who can do it too.

A Nomad is not a siege unit. A Nomad is a Nomad. A Nomad that bailed from a Balli or Cata is not even a normal Nomad. It's a useless Nomad. Certainly not a siege unit.

A. Behe spawning at flag and recapturing it along with killing every human there happens: ALL THE TIME!
B. Humans spawning cata or balli just to bail and be left with a naked nomad to get flag happens: NEVER?

So why would we allow A, a frequent occurrence, to keep on messing games, just because B might happen once in a million years?
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biggeruniverse
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2011, 12:05:13 pm »

We had the 1st already, biggeruniverse implented this when he was part of the XR dev team back then. Why did you revert that anyways?

Because, not only that big did it without any sorts of community debate over this issue or any other re-balancing changes,  but he didn't even confer with any other admin. I had no idea that he even did this, tbh, and who knows what else he sneakily changed on a whim, w/o ppl knowing.

Sorry dude, but I'm going to have to call you out on that.

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Trigardon
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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2011, 12:25:07 pm »

We had the 1st already, biggeruniverse implented this when he was part of the XR dev team back then. Why did you revert that anyways?

Because, not only that big did it without any sorts of community debate over this issue or any other re-balancing changes,  but he didn't even confer with any other admin. I had no idea that he even did this, tbh, and who knows what else he sneakily changed on a whim, w/o ppl knowing.

It's not like a community driven project can be made w/o the community. Nor that any single person is warranted enough to make balance changes on its own free will and subjective judgment.

And third of all, when big left, nothing was working and we had to revert everything to a revision like an year older, in order to make sure work can be done on a functional game, even though an older instance.

The change was before this whole forum was created? (Re-balancing suggestions)
I woner if your latest addition (helmet stuffs) was made with the communities approvement? Tongue
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Hakugei
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« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2011, 12:28:16 pm »

I do believe it was. :p
It was discussed somewhere, go find it!
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Trigardon
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« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2011, 12:31:42 pm »

Do I really need to post more examples?

Was the add of python discussed publicly?
What about gamescripts, triggers and physics? I can't remember having a thread where you asked for it.

Or what about the squads?
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Daemon
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« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2011, 12:34:27 pm »

I woner if your latest addition (helmet stuffs) was made with the communities approvement? Tongue

It's just eye candy. You can turn them off at anytime. And they don't affect how Behes are able to capture flags or not, or w/e other else you may think about. Melee ranges remain the same, as with everything else.

We had the 1st already, biggeruniverse implented this when he was part of the XR dev team back then. Why did you revert that anyways?

Because, not only that big did it without any sorts of community debate over this issue or any other re-balancing changes,  but he didn't even confer with any other admin. I had no idea that he even did this, tbh, and who knows what else he sneakily changed on a whim, w/o ppl knowing.

Sorry dude, but I'm going to have to call you out on that.

And what exactly is it that i got wrong? If anything, it proves my point 100%. Mohi dug up accidentally undocumented balance changes that you've made and reported them to the rest of us. I even admitted that your chages may be "right", just like any other change anyone could ever think about. This doesn't mean they should be implemented w/o a 2nd opinion... and a 3rd... and a 4th... and a 20th.
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