Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 20, 2019, 05:32:15 am

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Savage: XR is a new patch for Savage, created by the Newerth.com staff. The XR1.1 Client is out now! Download it now!
189653 Posts in 10987 Topics by 18241 Members
Latest Member: Abigaiper
* Home Forum Wiki Help Search Login Register
+  Newerth Forums
|-+  Savage XR
| |-+  Re-balancing Suggestions
| | |-+  First generation changes
| | | |-+  S14: Combat units use 30% less stamina for sprinting
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: S14: Combat units use 30% less stamina for sprinting  (Read 3493 times)
Daemon
XR Main Developer
Legendary Member
****
Posts: 4806


beware, for this is the everbroken...


View Profile
« on: June 27, 2011, 10:33:34 pm »

Suggested by: Tirza

1. The precise change you wanna see done, including exact values and item/unit names etc.
Decrease for all combat units the stamina costs for sprinting by 30%.

2. What triggered it (what is the CAUSE that made you think of something to eliminate that cause)
Beasts got a massive speed advantage by leaping, which however shouldn't be removed or changed itself since it's part of asymmetry of Savage and defines the very core gameplay/combat system.

3. The predicted overall effect of your change (its PURPOSE).
It will reduce several movement disbalances while keeping the core gameplay inact.

4. What will be harder to do, and for which side.
Human disadvantage: It will be slightly harder for humans to hillwhore since Beasts have more stamina to sprint uphills.
Beast disadvantage: It will be slightly harder to ignore the fighters and just go for tech and it will be harder to reach certain areas of the map much faster than humans. In duels it will be sightly harder for beasts to lock the human player down and harder to perform the return hit successfully.

5. What will be easier to accomplish, and by whom.
Beast advantage: It will be slightly easier to approach hillwhores with uphill sprinting to get into melee range as fast as possible.
Human advantage: It will be slightly easier for humans to chase saccers, also to reach certain points of the map faster (like capturing a flag for instance). Beasts on the other hand won't be able to travel faster since leaping is still the better choice than sprinting.
In duels it will make it slightly easier to dodge the return hit of beasts and will generally bring a bit more micro movements and stamina management into the combat for both races.

6. Will it make the game harder or easier for newbies (vs. veterans), and why.
My suggestion addresses general imbalances independent from the skill of the player.

7. Subsequent changes needed to tone down (compensate for) the effects of this change.
None

8. Other changes, which the current suggestion depends on so it can work properly.
None
Logged

Hakugei
XR Coder
Legendary Member
***
Posts: 3836



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2011, 11:20:02 pm »

Sounds harmless in terms of overall balance.
I wouldn't have anything against it.
More mobility, while it's still up to the player how to use it.
Leap will still be more efficient than sprinting/jumping in battle.
Logged
-Mein-
The One and Only
Super Hero Member
******
Posts: 1407



View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2011, 11:26:28 pm »

Suggested by Tirza, denied.

Logged


Daemon
XR Main Developer
Legendary Member
****
Posts: 4806


beware, for this is the everbroken...


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2011, 11:37:58 pm »

@Mein: Next useless post will get you a longish ban. I told you, stay away of the grown-ups area.
Logged

-Mein-
The One and Only
Super Hero Member
******
Posts: 1407



View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2011, 12:47:50 am »

@Mein: Next useless post will get you a longish ban. I told you, stay away of the grown-ups area.

I am sorry but i have more experiance in Savage than you, keep that in mind. Wink
And yeah even taking this serious you gotta ask yourself:

Beasts got a massive speed advantage by leaping:
The buff of sprinting will happen to both races, so we still have the same "ground speed level", but beasts still have sac.

It will reduce several movement disbalances
Maybe give some examples on that one.

It will be slightly harder for humans to hillwhore since Beasts have more stamina to sprint uphills.
Since when do Beasts sprint uphill? Thats rarely the case, leap uphill is way more effectiv. Hillwhoreing, standing on the hill keeping the beasts always under your feet level. That will allow you to freeswing him way easyer, aswell its limint his angel of his leaps. If you let the beast get on your level, you fail at hillwhoreing. You can use your own stamina to get further up the hill. Won't change hillwhoreing at all.

It will be slightly harder to ignore the fighters and just go for tech and it will be harder to reach certain areas of the map much faster than humans
Isn't it already hard enough? Most of the time when you have to pass players its the endgame when you are chainsacing or sacing the last remaining techlines.
Durring the endgame you have every Human player beeing in their base, thats already hard enough to pass those players (if they use their brain /imob/ranged weapons)
Mid or early game you have to pass 3 max 4 players, which ain't a real problem.

In duels it will be sightly harder for beasts to lock the human player down and harder to perform the return hit successfully.
Balancing duels should never be part of this, public is where we need to focus on.
Aswell as Humans have no actual chance to avoid the rehit of a beast player. I will explain it, you get blocked you take the hit from the human player. And as most nubs do they try to sprint away. If your ping differance is below 100 you can't get away, the beasts will always be in range of 1 leap and so he will be able to rehit you.

It will be slightly easier to approach hillwhores with uphill sprinting to get into melee range as fast as possible.
leaping upwards is faster and better, go zig zag so your leaps will be more efficant.

It will be slightly easier for humans to chase saccers, also to reach certain points of the map faster.
You are right they are reaching points of the map faster, but you will never chase a sacer if he is leaping away from you. Even with a speed buff you are to slow.


In duels it will make it slightly easier to dodge the return hit of beasts and will generally bring a bit more micro movements and stamina management into the combat for both races.
As i said above a good dueler will always land his rehit, "dogdeing" a rehit is based on mistakes of the beasts player.
Stamina controll is already the key to win duels. Otherwise bouncing is op. Thats why every nub is crying i bounce so much.


My suggestion addresses general imbalances independent from the skill of the player.
Thats wrong, a skilled player is using his stamina more usefull than a nub.

So overall, not a good idea to change it. Won't bring any good advantage for Humans.
Logged


H3027
Newerth PR Manager
Legendary Member
***
Posts: 2575



View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2011, 07:24:35 pm »

Beasts got a massive speed advantage by leaping:
The buff of sprinting will happen to both races, so we still have the same "ground speed level", but beasts still have sac.

The speed level is increased only for humans. Beasts won't use sprint to travel since investing stamina into leaping is by far the better choice. Humans can make more use of their stamina, Beasts will keep using leap as before.

It will reduce several movement disbalances
Maybe give some examples on that one.

As mentioned several times in my suggestion:
1. traveling (capturing the flag, reaching ressources, approaching the base etc)
2. fighting uphills (with a beast combat system being fundamentally dependent on movement and positioning)
3. mobility in duels (reaching an enemy after a bounced off block with sprint, harder to get locked down, easier to make use of mistakes concerning the stamina hit etc)

It will be slightly harder for humans to hillwhore since Beasts have more stamina to sprint uphills.
Since when do Beasts sprint uphill? Thats rarely the case, leap uphill is way more effectiv. Hillwhoreing, standing on the hill keeping the beasts always under your feet level. That will allow you to freeswing him way easyer, aswell its limint his angel of his leaps. If you let the beast get on your level, you fail at hillwhoreing. You can use your own stamina to get further up the hill. Won't change hillwhoreing at all.

You see there's much to learn for Beast players. They usually prefer the game mechanics to change in favour of their style rather than to adapt to it properly. My suggestion is sensitive and doesn't aim to completely remove the gameplay aspect of terrain in combat and commanding. Hence uphill leaping isn't up for debate here.
Besides humans walking slower while shooting as well as walking slower while they walk backwards (which they usually will if they want to hillwhore with ranged) which makes them easier to approach uphills anyway, hills aren't of infinite height. Actually most hills are quite fast to climb and approaching the enemy with sprinting is the best way to get into melee range or into a position where the enemy can be attacked with a leap.
For beasts which know how to play the game it will be considerably easier to fight against hillwhores.


It will be slightly harder to ignore the fighters and just go for tech and it will be harder to reach certain areas of the map much faster than humans
Isn't it already hard enough? Most of the time when you have to pass players its the endgame when you are chainsacing or sacing the last remaining techlines.
Durring the endgame you have every Human player beeing in their base, thats already hard enough to pass those players (if they use their brain /imob/ranged weapons)
Mid or early game you have to pass 3 max 4 players, which ain't a real problem.

Yes, pushing in end game is usually easier for humans as long as the gold reserves are constant. However, according to my huge public and clanwar experience (I also watched 100% of the shoutcasts), the late game dominance of humans isn't as definite as you're trying to say. If they can play mindlessly it's usually due bad map design.


In duels it will be sightly harder for beasts to lock the human player down and harder to perform the return hit successfully.
Balancing duels should never be part of this, public is where we need to focus on.
Aswell as Humans have no actual chance to avoid the rehit of a beast player. I will explain it, you get blocked you take the hit from the human player. And as most nubs do they try to sprint away. If your ping differance is below 100 you can't get away, the beasts will always be in range of 1 leap and so he will be able to rehit you.

I'm aware that a reblock as well as a failed stamina hit is always the fault of the Beast player (or the network latency), since it should technically not happen. However, the stamina cost changes would still allow humans to make better use of such mistakes. It's not a big change at all, but still worth to mention.

It will be slightly easier to approach hillwhores with uphill sprinting to get into melee range as fast as possible.
leaping upwards is faster and better, go zig zag so your leaps will be more efficant.

A gameplay change being more efficient than another is irrelevant, what matters is the relative effectivity compared to the whole situation. As mentioned before: this discussion isn't about implementing uphill leaps.


It will be slightly easier for humans to chase saccers, also to reach certain points of the map faster.
You are right they are reaching points of the map faster, but you will never chase a sacer if he is leaping away from you. Even with a speed buff you are to slow.

Balancing in action games shouldn't aim to make gameplay changes so drastically that in situation A always succeeds Z. This isn't an binary, number driven strategy game where every spell has a counter spell - no, manual skill, i.e. the "how" matters. Undoubtedly the change would make it more likely for a human to successfully chase a saccer. Which is what it is supposed to do.


In duels it will make it slightly easier to dodge the return hit of beasts and will generally bring a bit more micro movements and stamina management into the combat for both races.
As i said above a good dueler will always land his rehit, "dogdeing" a rehit is based on mistakes of the beasts player.
Stamina controll is already the key to win duels. Otherwise bouncing is op. Thats why every nub is crying i bounce so much.

Balancing in action games shouldn't aim to make gameplay changes so drastically that in situation A always succeeds Z. This isn't an binary, number driven strategy game where every spell has a counter spell - no, manual skill, i.e. the "how" matters. Exploiting mistakes will be more rewarding in duels. Also someone who constantly bounces off blocks and gets out of range will be more vulnerable to sprint attacks, as soon as the attack box overlaps the hitbox or the block logic less tangentially, resulting into a shorter bouncing distance.


My suggestion addresses general imbalances independent from the skill of the player.
Thats wrong, a skilled player is using his stamina more usefull than a nub.

Valid point, although using sprint to travel - which is the most dominant point of the suggestion - isn't especially hard in terms of stamina management.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 12:01:37 am by H3027 » Logged



First Witch: When shall we three meet again / In thunder, lightning, or in rain?
Second Witch: When the hurlyburly's done, / When the battle's lost and won.
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.044 seconds with 20 queries.