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| | | |-+  S10: Incinerator gets longer range
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Poll
Question: What is the best suggestion so Far?
Increase Fire Range - 1 (3.7%)
Increase Firing Rate - 1 (3.7%)
Give target Burning State - 18 (66.7%)
Speed-up Sac Timer - 4 (14.8%)
Increase Projectile Velocity - 3 (11.1%)
Total Voters: 27

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Author Topic: S10: Incinerator gets longer range  (Read 21694 times)
Daemon
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« on: February 19, 2011, 08:59:38 pm »

Suggested by: Graal

The re-balancing suggestion:
1. The flamethrower that humans have should have a longer range to the item, and if this is more effective than desired you could add an arc to the projectile fire.

2. Currently, the flamer is next to useless compared to the other first tech items, and the chemical branch overall.

3. This turns the flamer into a more efficient anti personnel weapon, keeping damage, projectile speed and ammunition (maybe a small increase of 10 - 30% more ammo since its a longer range) the same, so requires little modding to achieve.

4. This will make beasts life slightly harder, but due to the missile speed, not by much when 1 on 1.

5. This will make the chemical path more viable for human commanders, and defending key points easier for humans wile not disallowing beast maneuverability or degrading their gameplay.

6. It will increase difficulty for both groups, but more so for newbie beasts who haven't learned good leap skills yet, however, the increase will be negligible.

The ripple effect
7. probably more ammunition for flamer, and a slight decrease in attack power if its decided to have a real long shooting range. but i doubt their is much in ripple effect that needs changing.

8. just a graphics request: give the player a fuel tank on their back that looks a bit steam punky. just to make it more aesthetically pleasing.
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lololol
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2011, 09:39:43 pm »

dunno if  longer range for Incinerator is a good idea...we will get just another green flux ...maybe weaker , but the same feature.
I think what similar to "venom poison" effect will fit much better, animation can be like chemical poison or green fire flame.
so Incinerator will get it own "unique feature" and this feature really well fit to flame or chemical tower.

how strong or long time effect? - it is necessary to test for good weapon balance.anyway this weapon need be weak almost as it weak now, only slight power improvements would be ok.
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Cross
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2011, 09:51:25 pm »

two suggestions I heard that made sense, have it increase the rate of SAC, so if players are sac rushing, you use incin and it speeds up their timer so they explode before they hit a building.. assuming you can actually hit anything with the crappy incinerators, and increase it's damage to behemoths.

This way it actually has a role, and counter, like ALL weapons and items should have, the entire point is making weapons to increase players K:D ratio, but BALANCING the game according to COUNTERS which this game does a shit ass job at, which is why the balance is so horribly off.
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biggeruniverse
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2011, 12:08:09 am »

two suggestions I heard that made sense, have it increase the rate of SAC, so if players are sac rushing, you use incin and it speeds up their timer so they explode before they hit a building.. assuming you can actually hit anything with the crappy incinerators, and increase it's damage to behemoths.

This way it actually has a role, and counter, like ALL weapons and items should have, the entire point is making weapons to increase players K:D ratio, but BALANCING the game according to COUNTERS which this game does a shit ass job at, which is why the balance is so horribly off.

WHAT A GOOD IDEA!
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Cross
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2011, 02:28:22 am »

Yeah I'm pretty sure one of those if not both of them are your suggestions Bigger, I've actually heard a few people mention it but I'm pretty sure you were the first, also considering so I'm assuming it's been brought up before with the devs and apparently crapped on.
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Hakugei
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2011, 02:36:48 am »

Actually, any of Big's suggestions were implemented by himself without telling anyone.
It was never up for discussion, heh.
Mohi did quite some fixing so no secret balance changes remain.

Hence why Daemon started public balancing topics.
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Cross
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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2011, 02:49:57 am »

Actually I'm pretty sure it was because I constantly brought up balance changes which made people angry..which is odd but, every suggestion that I HEARD bigger talk about, balance wise I personally thought was great, and I have no idea why it would be reverted without at LEAST testing them or posting what they are and seeing if we would want it or not.

Maybe he didn't tell the devs specifically what he was doing, but he would constantly imply and say in-game what changes he wanted to and was making.. wasn't a secret at all in fact, but the devs probably don't play enough to realize that (not an insult.. obviously just a fact.)

I also helped bigger test behemoth prevention of attacking through walls and saw it work.. why would that be reverted as well?
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Hakugei
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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2011, 03:49:18 am »

Yeah, we didn't play enough on the US server. Smiley
But that's all beside the point. You do see the flaw in his way, don't you? :p

And why were they reverted without testing?
Well...
1) Some of his changes dropped FPS by a huge amount (you should have seen the sac effect! :p) or were just his own preferances.
2) Because there are no XR Testers around. Smiley They'd rather play normal Savage. Try testing without testers. o_o If you dare change anything to XR prod version, a variety of people complain about the sneaky ninja-change. :p Groent also doesn't do surprise updates as he said in the other thread.
3) It was a "secret" as barely anyone with the options knew of them. :p Chem wasn't the only change he did. Can't test something you don't know of!

Yes, Crosslight, repeated balance whines is one reason for these public balance discussions now, but not the whole. :p

As for "behe hit through wall", that wasn't just for behe - it was for all units. Everything that was reverted, was because it was unfinished. That is all. If XR is released with so many unfinished code and bugs...it would be RC1 all over again with no one wanting to use XR. :p The code wasn't removed, it's stored for whenever someone wants to mess around Buni's code. (Should have seen the new anti-stuck code! Instant teleporting ensured!)

Also, "balance" can be done by any Server Admin himself. :p And this is the place to talk about all balance changes. So anything Buni had in mind can be discussed here (=this forum section) now if you want to. Nothing is lost.


As for chem, I don't think it needs a balance change. The power of demolition is amazing. The techline is focused on destroying buildings - mortar, launcher, demo. If you give it actual fighting prowess (let's exaggerate and give incinerator the power of flux now!), it would be too powerful. Increasing incinerator is not really going to make people want chem more...as the tier2 weapon won't help fighting off enemies. Smiley If you go chem first, it's for mortar and demo (perhaps mines, too). And if you don't go chem first, why would anyone want to use incinerator when you have flux/repeater or even coil later on?
It sounds like there are two goals here: 1) make it a counter to sac rush OR 2) make it viable as first tech.
2) Won't happen. If you pick chem first, it's for a demo/mortar rush. Not for killing. While 1) sac can be countered with a fast shield or dominant flux spam.

So the question to ask yourself is, what purpose can you possibly achieve by meddling with incinerator?
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biggeruniverse
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2011, 04:37:07 am »

You know, you're breaking the camel's back here, Haku.

There was a rather long testing thread where I talked about the changes I made when I made them, so you're dead wrong about me making stealth changes. None of the team wanted you Hakugei, but Daemon brought you in anyway (mostly without asking for approval). I assume this is because you're related to eachother. The entire remaining dev team is mostly too incompetent to understand the changes I made, or how to finish them and therefore reverted them and worked on mining animation timing instead. I got frustrated and left because everything I did was sidetracked or reverted, and instead of working on Savage you and Daemon tried to involve everyone in your unfinished fail-mod, Savage Heroes.

Having admin revoked is kinda nice. I don't have to keep my opinion to myself anymore.  Afro
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 05:09:31 am by biggeruniverse » Logged


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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2011, 04:46:05 am »

You know, you're breaking the camel's back here, Haku.

There was a rather long testing thread where I talked about the changes I made when I made them, so you're dead wrong about me making stealth changes. None of the team wanted you Hakugei, but Daemon brought you in anyway (mostly without asking for approval). I assume this is because you're related to eachother. The entire remaining dev team is mostly too incompetent to understand the changes I made, or how to finish them and therefore reverted them and worked on mining animation timing instead. I got frustrated and left because everything I did was sidetracked or reverted, and instead of working on Savage you and Daemon tried to involve everyone in your unfinished fail-mod, Savage Heroes.

Having admin revoked is kinda nice. I don't have to keep my opinion to myself anymore.   Afro
This is true. Also... I see this being deleted very soon because you might have hurt his feelings!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 05:10:41 am by Robbo » Logged
Cross
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2011, 04:53:01 am »

Lol thanks Bigger.

And yes Hakugei let's leave Incinerator as it is now because ero people buying it and using it is the best and most effective way of handling something. It's honestly ignorance like this that keeps Savage from actually being something, or far more popular from the get go.

You do realize that next to no one outside of completely new players EVER actually willingly use the incinerator? There is a reason for this, and you being ok and fine with it.. is again a massive part of the problem this community is facing. To many "vets" stuck in their ways that absolutely and fervently revolt any and all positive changes, which holds this game back, slowly kills it and ruins the game. If you look back at all the threads and see the "vets" who didn't want change and look where they are now.. hmm most are gone from Savage, but yeah good thing ya all listened to them. Or even worst.. the vets who don't even play anymore or haven't for years who continue to chime in with their opinions, leaving us who actually PLAY the damn game to continue to suffer with this piss poor game engine that COULD be fixed and BALANCED but people clearly and blatantly DON'T understanding the very basic, common, and absolutely fundamental  KEY structure to balancing a game, which is proper tier weapon/item/unit COUNTERS (which includes making a weapon USEFUL and WITH PURPOSE) adds to why this game is on the verge of death.

Play ay REAL rts game that is properly balanced, like SC, WC3 etc. and you will see how EVERY ability and unit is with reason and has a COUNTER at their relative tier. Not like Savage where you need friggin tier 2 weapons to counter tier 1, that is moronic and asinine, as well as shocking that people can over look something THIS SIMPLE. You won't find any incinerator in WC3 because literally every unit, and ability has purpose, is USED frequently and can COUNTER something, which can NOT be said for Savage.. at all and that's a shame, you should not be happy with this in the least.

Also don't give me that age bullshit either, Starcraft is OLDER and still has a far longer, and stronger LASTING community then Savage and want to know the ONE simple reason and answer why.. GAME BALANCE, ask any of the vets why they play and they will tell you, because SC is considered one of the, if not THE most balanced RTS game ever made, hence the LARGE LASTING community. And yes I know SC is more popular and that accounts to having more players, but like I said the game is older, has a larger surviving/lasting community then Savage and will do so even after Savage is completely dead due to it's proper balance, which might I add contributed to all the professional competitions and tournaments. Any real gamer with an ounce of common sense would laugh his ass off if someone tried to enlist this broken ass imbalanced game into a serious gaming league. It would be like bringing a broken, beat up 1982 Ford Escort to a car show, it doesn't take a genius to figure out something's wrong.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 05:03:40 am by Cross » Logged

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Mohican
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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2011, 05:51:55 am »

Unilateraly changing weapons and states was never a good idea Big.
That's why Daemon setup this forum where changes get discussed before-hand.

That being said, I really liked you idea of a "barbeque" state for people hit by the incinerator.
With this idea, we would not need to increase the range of incinerators to make them more attractive.
It would actually make the weapon attractive to newbies and people who cant shoot accurately.
Of course, damage from the barbeque should be small to reflect this "low skill" aspect.
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Hakugei
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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2011, 08:17:59 am »

Seems I hit a nerve, huh Big? Smiley You're also making things up here and there. But I don't have any interest in bothering with you. Waste of time.

And wow, Crosslight. You seem awfully aggressive in terms of having a "public discussion". Smiley
It's not the "vets" that "ignorantly" decline any changes. It's you who won't even listen to reason and counter-opinions that are different to your own.

Increasing damage (poison effect = more damage, nothing else) will not make incinerator more popular unless you increase it by ridiculous amounts. But then you'd have to rebalance the other weapons/techlines as well. Where will you draw the line?
Increasing range (but leaving projectile speed as is) makes it fairly difficult to aim - not too interesting.

And if you want to make incinerator a purely-sac counter weapon, you're basically forcing people to go chem on likely sac-rush maps and maybe even making sac rushes impossible. So, don't tell me I'm against it just because "I like it the way it is". Isn't that exactly the opposite reason of why you want it changed? Because you DON'T like it the way it is? How is that any better? xD Really, Crosslight. I thought you might be clever and mature enough to discuss a balance change in peace. Guess I was wrong.

Your comparisons to SC are kind of sad, really. First you tell me Savage VETS don't want rebalancing, and then you tell me SC balance is perfect because the VETS say so. -_- Really? Do you not see the contradiction you made? *sighs*

And "balance" isn't the reason why Savage is so small. Oh my.

So, want to try again, Crosslight? Why does chem need to do killing alongside its intended goal? Maybe mature and calm this time?
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Mohican
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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2011, 08:40:02 am »

No need to take out the high horse Hakugei.
Let's keep this discussion cold headed please.
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Mohican
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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2011, 09:36:15 am »

Play ay REAL rts game that is properly balanced, like SC, WC3 etc. and you will see how EVERY ability and unit is with reason and has a COUNTER at their relative tier. Not like Savage where you need friggin tier 2 weapons to counter tier 1, that is moronic and asinine, as well as shocking that people can over look something THIS SIMPLE. You won't find any incinerator in WC3 because literally every unit, and ability has purpose, is USED frequently and can COUNTER something, which can NOT be said for Savage.. at all and that's a shame, you should not be happy with this in the least.

What you are saying is true, but complaining does not help one bit.
Do you have a vision of how the weapons in each Tier can work as rock/paper/scissor?
If so I am interested to hear it. If not, please do not take your frustration out on us.
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