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Newerth Hosted Competitions => Newerth Savage League (NSL) => Topic started by: hell' on April 29, 2008, 12:32:07 pm



Title: A possible solution to prevent disputes
Post by: hell' on April 29, 2008, 12:32:07 pm
I have an idea that i'd like to discuss with you all.

As there have been a few disputes among the clans participating in the NSL, i think that it would be best to have an objective and ofc muted spectator for the matches (if both clans agree on it ofc).

The task of the spectator should be taking a demo of the game (just like the shoutcasts - just without any audio-comments) so we have a neurtal source in case of a dispute. He (or she) could also act as a "judge" and help clarify a certain situation from a neutral perspective and with that help to prevent flaming and long discussions in forums.

If i want to take this idea one step further you can set the spectator as referee. This would imply a really good knowledge of both the server and the NSL rules. Again - both clans would have to agree on it, as the referee would eventually interfere in the game (e.g. if he rates a player action as an exploit.

An important aspect should be the neutral status of the spectaor/ref/whatever u wanna call it. both teams must agree on the spec and in case they admit him the status of ref - then they must live with the decissions - and not start a flame-war aginst the ref or call for a draw/win after a match.

I think that this might be a solution to get neutral demos and prevent some fights to a certain degree.

So what you think?

and btw - if i have time i could help out  if needed.


Title: Re: A possible solution to prevent disputes
Post by: Taggi on April 29, 2008, 12:49:16 pm
If hes only there to take demo it doesn't really do anything, as everyone should take demo anyway (though the auto record doesnt seem to work everytime), a ref would obviously be interesting


Title: Re: A possible solution to prevent disputes
Post by: hell' on April 29, 2008, 12:52:09 pm
i added the part of the neutral spectator as the "light" version of a ref - he then would be more of a consutant than a ref and should be used in case the teams cant agree on having a ref in their CW (even though i can't come up with an argument against having a ref online)


btw: i am ref on the EvO Matches server - just in case 2 clans play there and want a ref online


Title: Re: A possible solution to prevent disputes
Post by: Kaput on April 29, 2008, 01:07:46 pm
Altho at first it seems like a good and well intended idea I forsee some practical problems.

First:
Both teams need to agree.
If one doesn't, so there is no ref/spectator present and there will be a dispute then the team which agreed for a ref can use this, on purpose or not, against the team who was against. This can make the following dispute discussion very subjective. There is a good chance a lot of arguments will be the: What if.....? kind of arguments.
And if one team disagrees there is a chance that tension between the two clans will be created even before the match starts.

2nd:
Instead of only creating a date and time for two clans to play a clanwar now the two clans have to arrange a date and time wich suits the 3th party (the ref). So that means you'll need plenty of refs who are on standby to ref a game.

About how a ref must behave I agree.

Kaput


Title: Re: A possible solution to prevent disputes
Post by: hell' on April 29, 2008, 01:27:09 pm
thx for the input there:
i understand what u are aiming at - but IMHO - why wouldn't you want a ref / spec in game? from my POV only if u intend on breraking the rules... if u play by the rules you have nothing to fear.
But to answer your concerns:
First I thought of making the presence of a ref/spec a mandatory thing (so no agreement of the participating teams is needed) - yet i saw the organisational problem here, which u mentioned in your second concern. (i'll answer that later)
my next idea to make a ref/spec mandatory for certain clans (those who have been involved in a dispute before) - but that idea is obviously stupid and highly unfair towards the clans. Also it wouldn't prevent any troubles between other clans.

So what about this: A ref/spec should be present if one of the teams demands it. (as stated in my fisrt post he/she will be neutral)

So know to the organisational aspect - i fully agree on the additional complications that may arise from this. And tbh i don't have a good solution to this.
I just hope that we all learned from the previous incidents and the clans are more aware of possible problems and how to handle them (e.g. that you might want to have back-up players, making sure u have time and a stable connection, that pausing a game isn't an option, that commanders don't place buildings in a way that an exploit is easyly possible, keeping a minimum level od manners, etc.)


Title: Re: A possible solution to prevent disputes
Post by: Dragnarr on April 29, 2008, 01:42:18 pm
I don't trust refs. They could be fake nickin and be hooked up on other clans TS server for all I know...

Unlikely, perhaps, but I don't like taking chances.

If there were clear rules on these "disputes" it would be much more useful, since the auto-recording works most of the time, and the only incident I can think of was XIII vs EoN and that lead into the thread because there were no clear rules on how to deal with disconnected players.


Title: Re: A possible solution to prevent disputes
Post by: Moxy on April 29, 2008, 02:04:56 pm
yah, i dont like spectators in clanwars, only person im willing to spectate a game is Darkstorm and other Shoutcasters.


Title: Re: A possible solution to prevent disputes
Post by: hell' on April 29, 2008, 02:08:20 pm
yes - there is a minimal risk of such things happening (i mean we see it in real life as well that refs are being corrupted) and i can't give out any garanties for anyone but myself not to use the status as ref/spec to help any of the playing teams. This was why in my original post i said that both clans must agree on the ref....

About the nicklaming - a solution to this could be a "ref clan" or a pasword given out by the clans.

but these are all ideas that can be corrupted as well, if someone has a real intrest in sabotaging this.
It should also be clear that a ref can't be online when his clan plays (e.g. i wouldn't ref a SoV game - though i think that was pretty obvious).  

and as i said in a previous post - i don't think it needs to be mandatory - just an option.

The option of a "stand-by" ref doesn't seem good IMO, as it wouldn't be any diffrent of the way things are now. The ref/spec (or the community) are just confronted with facts - the games are over and most likely the out-come will not be changed.


Title: Re: A possible solution to prevent disputes
Post by: hell' on April 29, 2008, 02:10:33 pm
yah, i dont like spectators in clanwars, only person im willing to spectate a game is Darkstorm and other Shoutcasters.

ok - maybe it's just me - but what would be the difference between a ref/spec that takes a demo (and won't add a audio comment) to Darkstorm or any other shoutcaster?


Title: Re: A possible solution to prevent disputes
Post by: The Hungry Predator on April 29, 2008, 04:20:41 pm
its a good idea, but, quite a few dont like it lol... when i offered to ref for demo and sun, both moxy and cbc sed ok, i got to the server and then i was flamed right back out again... its a good idea... just, as sed above, both clan leaders shud agree with it and afterwords there shud be no flaming matches etc, both clan leaders shud decide then they shud stick with their descision...


Title: Re: A possible solution to prevent disputes
Post by: REBORN / 1UP on April 29, 2008, 04:29:08 pm
one of the nsl rules should be that every player MUST record a demo in case of later discussions.

to prevent arguements as seen before, a TRIBUNAL of respected and neutral refs should later decide whether accusations are relevent or not and what should be done about it.
they should carefully comment their decision so everybody knows their point.
the outcome is NOT for discussion.

never thought that we might need a jurisdication in newerth  :roll:


Title: Re: A possible solution to prevent disputes
Post by: Groentjuh on April 29, 2008, 04:38:00 pm
The task of the spectator should be taking a demo of the game (just like the shoutcasts - just without any audio-comments) so we have a neurtal source in case of a dispute.
Most EU match servers are recording server side demos. You can't get a better information and more neutral source then that!
i don't think it needs to be mandatory - just an option.
Everything is an option. If both clans agree you can break as much rules as you like, BUT BOTH CLANS MUST  HAVE AGREED before the match
Just like having a tiebreaker...


Title: Re: A possible solution to prevent disputes
Post by: hell' on April 29, 2008, 05:22:43 pm
Most EU match servers are recording server side demos. You can't get a better information and more neutral source then that!

as pointed out in a earlier reply i only saw that as the "light" versiion of a ref being online


Title: Re: A possible solution to prevent disputes
Post by: SyKot on April 29, 2008, 08:32:58 pm
Is there a way to dl those serverside demos to your comp and watch em?


Title: Re: A possible solution to prevent disputes
Post by: hell' on April 29, 2008, 08:36:41 pm
afaik you have to/can only watch them online - but i am not 100% sure


Title: Re: A possible solution to prevent disputes
Post by: Groentjuh on April 30, 2008, 08:40:17 am
afaik you have to/can only watch them online - but i am not 100% sure
true... or your could start an own server and do "cvarlist serverdemos" and configure it to replay... then become a shoutcaster and download the serverside demos you need!