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Savage XR => Re-balancing Suggestions => Topic started by: Daemon on June 18, 2017, 08:55:33 pm



Title: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Daemon on June 18, 2017, 08:55:33 pm
Nerfing Siege Camping

Intentions shall be clear! We're suffocating under siege camping for as long as this game exists (probably). So I thought of this simple fix!

If spawned as siege and re-entering spawn positions a 30 second respawn penatly will be given to the player.
This simple fix should forbid people from re-entering and successfully camp at spawn locations.

This should include every single siege units including the ejected unit (so sieges are actually dying for the mess they can cause / will cause).


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Marbello on June 18, 2017, 10:32:03 pm
In an ideal world, ballista's make people a) use weapons other than rabid, b) promote team play and c) make people apply terrain knowledge. This decreases the impact that duel champs have and makes the normal player stronger.

However, last nerf was already not well thought out. Beasts get massive amounts of gold vs shielded buildings and the necessary train defense is starving. Your suggestion is again strengthening beasts, as their sieges aren't as essential for defense as for humans.
Why more? Keep the normal player, which is needed to keep the community alive, in mind. Let them cry for another 15 years if thats what they need to learn.

/rant


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Bullet on June 19, 2017, 03:49:03 pm
I support this aswell.

Marbello have a point regarding that it might favor beasts more, but I think behecamping/behespawning are breaking balance more than camping balis and catas.

The logic for that is:
1. human defenses are strong(in general), if a bali misses his shots, its no emergency, they pred most likely dies to shielded towers.
2. Beast defenses are weak, so any disruption in the playerdefense (the defense made up of actual players) are much more critical, and any demorunner who is lucky to find a re-spawning behe who have to wait 30 seconds, are much more dangerous than a bali who have to wait 30 seconds.





Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Brad_Troika on June 19, 2017, 04:37:41 pm
I have an idea on how to nerf siege-camping when it's the most annoying (imho anyway), that is demorunning and (chain)saccing.

So one idea is to make the usage of sac immune the user to any siege damage.
The other is to have sub-lairs emit an "aura" that makes T1 units invulnerable to siege damage.


Also reducing balli and summ dmg to "somewhat-less-than-a-lego/pred" could make siege units less of a defensive units, but it would severely decrease their protection even when they are attacking.

My problem with Trig's 30s cooldown is that I don't think siege units entering and re-entering is a big issue, while it happens sometimes, most of the times the behe/balli camping camps until the danger is present and they don't enter/re-enter.
The 30s would also penalize players using siege units "appropriately".


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Daemon on June 19, 2017, 05:02:34 pm
Forcing a respawn cooldown, although ill-willed imho, could be somehow explained (siege is reloading, whatnot...). But as far as immersion and consistency goes, i can see no viable way to reconcile the idea that subs are offensive structures and beasts are an offensive race, with the fact that subs protect the enemies from their own brethren damage. Sac making you invulnerable is also hard to explain but it's actually wrong on at least 2 other accounts: it buffs sac, which is already the strat of choice, and it changes the game too much.

There was a suggestion floating around that would force behes to stand still while their melee swing is active. I could go with that. I'd also go with some sort of timer that's reset every time siege leaves a spawnpoint, that has to expire before being able to attack.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Brad_Troika on June 19, 2017, 05:12:56 pm
Sac isn't overpowered, sacrushes are. If humans got to the point where they can get ballis out that sac rush probably failed (although not always).

As for immersion breaking, you could make the demo item protect the demorunners, I can imagine a small "tentacle" coming out of sub when the demo is placed similar to how towers look like when you place them under commander view.

The changes themselves would change only spawncamping (unless misused, although I don't know how) which is the goal of the changes.

Although I don't think it's a good idea, but the effects could be researched after researching the items at tier3. The reason I don't think it's good is because it would legitimize spawncamping, but it would also change the game less.

But I really don't think immersion is such a high priority, I know it's not for me.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Bullet on June 19, 2017, 05:31:31 pm
This is rather radical, but its a pretty simple solution:

Deny siege units to enter spawnpoints (garrs/subs/lairs/sh) after spawning. People will quickly learn to not spawn at the wrong positions (besides, how often do you select wrong spawn anyway?)

OR

They can re-enter spawn, but all gold in your own stockpile is donated to the team (to avoid ppl wasting gold on purpose), and gold requests are denied for 1 minute for you(the siege camper who entered the sub/garr/whatever)... you're basically broke.

Regardless of the options, the idea is that it should totally suck to re-enter a spawnposition as a siege unit, to prevent camping.

Sidenote: I know humans huse catas/balis in defense against behes on small maps, but if youre constantly spawning/respawning to avoid getting hit by behe, you're using the siege unit wrong.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Shagroth on June 19, 2017, 06:04:00 pm
Siege camping is one of the main reasons people quit this game, It's about time.
Siege camping is a problem because:
  • It prolongs games to the point where its simply boring.(behe spawning is the worst)- 1 behe can stop a team of demo runners using a lot of time and team effort just to get stopped by a guy who plans something for 1 second and stops the run with 1 move.
  • It can instantly kill a fully equipped unit with 1 shot(whereas its true purpose is buildings, not units)
  • 1 siege unit can effectively kill for 20k gold in a few seconds, with no negative effects(like elec cooldown)
  • Gold is extremely crucial to both sides, 1 siege unit can fuck up that balance with a "lucky" shot.
  • "Use ranged weapons" If you are the sole person who can push for your team, you cannot do that as beast with ranged.

Few years ago I could probably make several pages with points to why siege is killing the game, but I stopped caring.
It's a bit late to do it now, but better late than never.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Bullet on June 20, 2017, 05:15:37 pm
Another solution could be to have caps on siege units, for exaple, maximum 1/3 of the team, unless team is below three players in total.

Pros:
- The team which have a siege camper is more likely to want to kick/movetospec the players which are excessively siegecamping, because they cant use siege units sometimes. This can help in the long run with creating a norm/culture that siege camping is not ok.
  --> Currently, this is not the case. If you try to kick someone, most of the team which have the player, will vote no, and you get nowhere.
- The solution works well in balanced games, especially in maps with many paths to the enemy bases and large maps.

Cons:
- Work bad on small maps, where siege units spawn in more neutral positions (offensive and defensive at the same time.. for example flags on kinixxx). Hard to be angry on someone who defended flag, but argue to be using behe for offensive reasons.
- ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another solution:
-Keep track of siege building hits vs siege kills, and make damage on units relative to that siege units building hits divided on siege kills- As any Siege units have a maximum unit-damage of 100% (normal) initially, but a the more players you kill as siege unit, the less damage you deal to them (unless you actually hit buildings with your attacks too).
- The concept is simple : If you kill a guy, but have done no building hits as that siege unit so far in the game, the mathwork is 0/1. That is 0, but lets say 50 % damage is minimum damage (0 % would be weird).
- Lets say you shot a shield tower 5 times as summ, but killed 6 guys. That is 5/6 = 0.83 = 83 % of normal damage damage towards units.
- In the event of having a surplus of building hits vs killed people, the damage towards units is 100 %.
- The damage the siege unit does to other siege units is not affected.
- The damage you do as siege units towards other players might need to be shown in the HUD, to break the meta-gameplay less.

Pros:
- Prevents excessive siege camping effectively, making them less deadly the more they camp
- Keep the units purpose intact - more specialization of the purpose, less agile and self-defending siege units.
- Creates more meta for behemoths - no longer instakill on most units.
- Is more in favor of humans than beasts, which in my opinion is a pro, since beasts win more in average (not competetive setting)

Cons:
- Breaks the meta for some siege units, such as summoner and balista.
  --> You are no longer sure if you kill another player with a shot.
- Very RPG-ish, and not in style with how Savage is, im not fan of RPG elements, but I can support rpg elements for siege units as long as it doesnt interfere with the regular gameplay units, and to get rid of the siege camp problem
- ?




Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Trigardon on June 20, 2017, 06:03:04 pm
Another solution could be to have caps on siege units, for exaple, maximum 1/3 of the team, unless team is below three players in total.

This makes siege rushes on normal maps or on low population useless and is like a way bigger nerf than I had in mind.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Bullet on June 20, 2017, 06:14:54 pm
You're welcome to modify the alternative to the way you imagined.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Marbello on June 21, 2017, 06:09:03 pm
Siege camping is one of the main reasons people quit this game, It's about time.
Old players quit because of siege camping, new players leave because of Shagroth(s).

  • It can instantly kill a fully equipped unit with 1 shot(whereas its true purpose is buildings, not units)
Although 1 shot kills are a high vulnerability, sieges are themselves even more vulnerable to these fully equipped units (and other sieges) if they're not close to respawn points. Leaving the dictionary purpose of siege units aside, they are still needed. In a 9vs9 match on public, defending against 9 behemoths is not happening without siege. It would need an extent of coordination that goes very far beyond a rabid and another player with a blaze.
  • "Use ranged weapons" If you are the sole person who can push for your team, you cannot do that as beast with ranged.
You are not supposed to push alone, although the old players that you've mentioned in your first line of course would like to be able to do so. If absolutely needed you can still hide behind a tree. But if your definition of pushing is to crush anyone who spawns from strongholds (of course to give room for summs to kill shields, harvester of noobs), so god be with us.

With my (human) viewpoints in mind, the only solution that I could see working would be a damage reduction against siege if sac has been activated in a certain radius around respawn points. Against beast siege, I could see a damage reduction on behemoth hits working if the human unit is carrying a demo pack. This needs to be of course tested and the % or # of reduction should be likely not the very same for both races.

Another solution could be to have caps on siege units, for exaple, maximum 1/3 of the team, unless team is below three players in total.
As far as I remember, there was a server that did that and it just led to sieges never available when one needed them.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: SavageBeard on June 21, 2017, 07:31:05 pm
Player hit by siege gets stunned for a bit instead of taking damage  :mrgreen:


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Daemon on June 21, 2017, 07:57:05 pm
Player hit by siege gets stunned for a bit instead of taking damage  :mrgreen:
So you die from getting stung by a tiny hunting arrow but you only get a headache from being impaled by a big ass ballista bolt? :P


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Shagroth on June 21, 2017, 09:42:03 pm
Siege camping is one of the main reasons people quit this game, It's about time.
Old players quit because of siege camping, new players leave because of Shagroth(s).

Is this a personal attack or is it attempt at making a point...?

* I will never choose to attack newbs. Spec me anytime.
* More chances they leave when they get killed by something they don't see or know how works, like a random lightning/summoner shot. Melee is very straight forward, big guy hits you and you die.
* In general Newbs would leave would leave the game no matter how they got killed though, cause its the spoonfed generation.

  • It can instantly kill a fully equipped unit with 1 shot(whereas its true purpose is buildings, not units)
Although 1 shot kills are a high vulnerability, sieges are themselves even more vulnerable to these fully equipped units (and other sieges) if they're not close to respawn points. Leaving the dictionary purpose of siege units aside, they are still needed. In a 9vs9 match on public, defending against 9 behemoths is not happening without siege. It would need an extent of coordination that goes very far beyond a rabid and another player with a blaze.

"High vulnerability" what? Elaborate?
Of course siege units are vulnerable to attack, they are supposed vulnerable because of the potential damage they can deal to a base in a short time.
Using siege in defence is the lazy mans way of playing the game. Of course siege is effective vs behemoths, but a repeater nomad with immob is more cost effective and probably better(I did not do the DPS math).
What would make what you say better is 2 shamans and 6 behes and a blaze/saccer. But how often does this perfect situation occur in a public game, where the real problem lies?

  • "Use ranged weapons" If you are the sole person who can push for your team, you cannot do that as beast with ranged.
You are not supposed to push alone, although the old players that you've mentioned in your first line of course would like to be able to do so. If absolutely needed you can still hide behind a tree. But if your definition of pushing is to crush anyone who spawns from strongholds (of course to give room for summs to kill shields, harvester of noobs), so god be with us.

This is a weird way to see the situation. I believe you are having several logical phallacys in your reasoning so far.
The players quit cause siege camping makes the game boring, whatever skills you may have does not apply versus the instakill.
I can try to break it down for you how the game works lately in my experience.
Lets say comms are equal.
Very often teams are unfair, usually there are some top players on both teams, of course if this does not happen the lesser skilled team loses.
What I experience very often is fighting a stack, where my team relies on me to do the work. I can do that very well, unless something instantly kills me where i have no ability to stop it and strikes me out of gold. Now I am suddenly unable to do anything unless I steal from team gold, which is usually empty on the worse team side. I would elaborate further but I believe you can understand the issue.

With my (human) viewpoints in mind, the only solution that I could see working would be a damage reduction against siege if sac has been activated in a certain radius around respawn points. Against beast siege, I could see a damage reduction on behemoth hits working if the human unit is carrying a demo pack. This needs to be of course tested and the % or # of reduction should be likely not the very same for both races.
Wow no....

If anything saccers should take more damage cause of how overpowered it is when used correctly.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Hakugei on July 22, 2017, 10:38:18 pm
There has been plenty of different directions going on here (and in general for siege), making it difficult to decide which change to go for first.

Next week's testing change hasn't been decided yet, so courtesy of Brad, this is a chance for the community to decide which one they'd like first (and which ones after).
If no preferances are voiced, the Council will have to pick the order in which to test them.
So, any wishes? :)


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Bullet on July 23, 2017, 12:49:27 am
My personal preference for testing:
1. Limit behemoths turn speed (hardcode it), such that they cant turn fast, and cant 360* instakill anyone in one hit.
2. force behes to stand still while their melee swing is active + some sort of timer that's reset every time siege leaves a spawnpoint, that has to expire before being able to attack.
3. Deny siege units to enter spawnpoints (garrs/subs/lairs/sh) after spawning. For cata/bali ejects, it the nomad can re-enter. 
4. The other is to have sub-lairs emit an "aura" that makes T1 units invulnerable to siege damage.



Ps. Another proposal, for siege camping could be charged shots (for bali/summs), meaning, a un-charged shot doesnt one-shot kill, but a charged shot does. Charged shots must hold down the shoot button for some time, like the discharger weapon.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Daemon on July 23, 2017, 06:58:09 am
What would stop players from walking around with a charged hit, like discharger or fiereball or snare, which they click the instant the old shot was fired. Also, wouldn't that mean summs can hit faster? Because in order to preserve dps, rate of fire should be increased as it's mana dependant too.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Hakugei on July 23, 2017, 10:16:54 am
1-hit-1kill seems to be what annoys people the most in terms of siege, or specifically balli and summ.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Brad_Troika on July 23, 2017, 11:12:40 am
The ideas discussed here will get implemented in form of a test week if they are not vetoed by council or if they are possible to code/design.

The ideas in the thread (before Bullet's suggestions) were:
siege hits are no longer one shot kills (for preds/legos at least)
siege units can't enter/re-enter spawn points freely
sac/demo/spawnpoint providing some from of defense against siege


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Daemon on July 23, 2017, 11:39:23 am
The ideas discussed here will get implemented in form of a test week if they are not vetoed by council or if they are possible to code/design.
What about these?
1. Limit behemoths turn speed (hardcode it), such that they cant turn fast, and cant 360* instakill anyone in one hit.
2. force behes to stand still while their melee swing is active + some sort of timer that's reset every time siege leaves a spawnpoint, that has to expire before being able to attack.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: SavageBeard on July 23, 2017, 01:20:17 pm
No it would be so boring to use Behe then.


I suggest all siege stun + you get the momentum applied, so for example balli hit will stun scavengers and launch them away across the map.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Trigardon on July 23, 2017, 01:36:02 pm
No it would be so boring to use Behe then.


I suggest all siege stun + you get the momentum applied, so for example balli hit will stun scavengers and launch them away across the map.

(http://www.gifbin.com/bin/062010/1275389857_naked-gun-facepalm.gif)


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Bullet on July 23, 2017, 02:36:22 pm
@Damon
Regarding players walking around with a fully charger shot: slow down movement when the shot get fully charged,  like a snared beast trying to walk. Easely coilable.
Regarding spam shots:
True, it would need to require full mana before the shot is fired to avoid spam-shots... But then again, there needs to be a reward for using charged shots, or something that counter the nerf it is. That improvement could be that summ shots and bali shots gets a bigger vertikal drop(stronger gravity affecting the shots) the more charged  the shot is, or it could get more range.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Brad_Troika on July 26, 2017, 01:31:23 pm
I can see charged shot working for summs and ballis.
Siege could either choose to shoot immediately without charge, mb using 60-70% of summ's mana and causing less dmg to legos/preds so they don't insta-kill them. Or they could start charging, getting back theirs insta-kill dmg to units, and somewhat increased dmg to buildings to compensate their lower fire-rate but they would also get slower turn-rate, movements speed while charging.
The mana cost for a non-charged shot should make spamming a shot impossible, balli already has a cooldown after shooting (which  could be reduced(?) for a non-charged shot).
The non-charged shot for a summ could have a visibly smaller effect, while balli missile could be slower.

Problem is I'm not sure how fun it would be to play as a balli/summ with this mechanic. As for now the only effect of this mechanic would be to reduce dmg to units, which would be much easier to just do globally.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Daemon on July 26, 2017, 06:32:24 pm
Ballis have a really short lifespan and an even shorter window of opportunity to inflict damage, before any of the gazillion ways to kill them comes knocking: preds on firebuff, stalkers with blaze, scavs with sac, behemoths, even temp and summs.

If each shot is:
1. delayed, then its DPS plummets, as well its aim (since ballis/catas take a while to adjust their aim and hit their targets properly, and counts on trial and error which means wasted shots and time)
2. kept just as fast as before, then there's no point in charging time since the balli cooldown is too fast to even have charge time.

Also, all these variations in speeds, splash area, increased dmg to buildings and not units or any other such concoctions are just impossible to implement - the game has no support for such fine tuning.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Bullet on July 26, 2017, 09:16:05 pm
DPS isnt the only imporant factor when considering siege. If you increase the range on charged shots (versus non-charged shots), it can counter the loss in DPS. With that logic, bali's can get more time to inflict siege damage before getting into trouble. Since its charged shots, siege camping will be more a pain-in the ass to do (takes more time per shot), and not even  close to as effective as camping today is.

Regarding limits in terms of what can be implemented:
Can longer range, depending on the charge level be implemented ? I would be surprised if this wasnt possible, as the bow already have that mechanism.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Hakugei on July 26, 2017, 10:04:21 pm
I would be surprised if this wasnt possible, as the bow already have that mechanism.
Charging increases the velocity, and combining that with gravity makes the bow go less far.
But max distance itself doesn't scale.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Tjens on August 03, 2017, 09:40:00 pm
Summoners can melee units, dealing low damage with high knockback.

With the recent summoner nerf (not being able to one-shot a full HP lvl 9 legionnare anymore), our little lizard friends are a little more vulnerable. By giving them a low-damage, high-knockback melee skill it will give them a chance  to ward off close quarter attackers. Ideally, the melee skill drains just enough mana to follow up with the summoner's ranged strike. When properly timed, this can make a melee-ranged combo hard to pull off, but not impossible (this should not be eazy!).

Pros:
- Summoners will be able to defend themselves better from close range
- Hard to pull of combo's can be a fun skill to master

Cons:
- Might overpower summoners
- When made too eazy, the combo could turn out lame


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Hakugei on August 13, 2017, 09:12:19 pm
Ballista and Summoner changes are up, and we went all-out with them instead of just boring number changes.
But feedback will shape their future, one way or another.

We've also set our eyes on behemoth, so does anyone have any ideas?


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: SavageBeard on August 14, 2017, 08:54:46 am
Summoner and ballista should both be range-based damage instead, i.e. if the enemy is reasonably close(like 50-70) the damage is lowered (like it is in the current patch, not one-shot), if it is far away, it will be a one shot kill for those juicy skillfull shots. Good idea?


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Tjens on August 14, 2017, 10:16:22 am
Summoner and ballista should both be range-based damage instead, i.e. if the enemy is reasonably close(like 50-70) the damage is lowered (like it is in the current patch, not one-shot), if it is far away, it will be a one shot kill for those juicy skillfull shots. Good idea?

To give some feedback to your idea Savagebeard, I think it's a good idea to reduce closeby 1hitkill shots against a fully armored legionnaire from nearby, but it does'nt tackle the issue of summoners not actually advancing, as staying back and trying to score some of those (admittedly juicy) one hit kills - while not actually trying target buildings - only embolstering the camping game!



Another variant of this is something I heard someone suggesting:

Quote from: lose translation
Giving the ranged strike a wind up time like the fireball - at the start of the charge it's magical missile transfers less damage to units, but while fully charged damage is just enough to kill a not-full health legionnaire. Damage to buildings should be always full!

This will make it harder to defend yourself from close range, as you can't give someone a suprise ball-o-death, as people will see exactly when your shots are coming. Also imagine the panic of the summoner trying to deciding when it's the best time to actually fire a shot! What are your thoughts on this?


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Trigardon on August 14, 2017, 12:33:37 pm
Summoner and ballista should both be range-based damage instead, i.e. if the enemy is reasonably close(like 50-70) the damage is lowered (like it is in the current patch, not one-shot), if it is far away, it will be a one shot kill for those juicy skillfull shots. Good idea?

How exactly is this nerfing siege camping?! :x


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: SavageBeard on August 14, 2017, 02:39:51 pm
Summoner and ballista should both be range-based damage instead, i.e. if the enemy is reasonably close(like 50-70) the damage is lowered (like it is in the current patch, not one-shot), if it is far away, it will be a one shot kill for those juicy skillfull shots. Good idea?

How exactly is this nerfing siege camping?! :x

It's obviously harder to hit things that are far away.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Hakugei on August 14, 2017, 04:04:31 pm
But ballista camping is specifically them staying at base to shoot enemies far away? :?
Ballistas killing enemies in melee is them actually going towards enemy base, leaving their own camping spot behind.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: drk on February 03, 2018, 11:28:46 pm
We had an idea about the ballis nerfing: reduce balli's dmg and set "immob" effect on hit + leave the dmg on structures the same. Is this possible?


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Hakugei on February 04, 2018, 09:38:17 am
Simple change, very possible.
But for XR rebalance or community server change? :)


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: drk on February 04, 2018, 10:25:16 am
If that is easy configurable I can try it locally first.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Hakugei on February 04, 2018, 10:28:24 am
Lower the Ballista's objSet unitPierce (damage multiplier for unit damage, does not affect buildings).
Then create a ballista weapon GS script and add @impact !givestate target (for the immob state).


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: ValrogM on March 03, 2018, 07:56:39 am
You get what you measure.

IMO the best and simplest option is to remove the motive for abuse.

Make a change so that neither a kill nor a death will be recorded (not just in the permanent stats, but on the scorecard) while a player is using a siege unit.

This will:

1. Encourage people to use siege units appropriately to destroy enemy defenses, as deaths don't count. But buildings destroyed count, and it's actually safer now, so people will do what they're supposed to do.
2. Discourage people from using siege units to rack up kills, as kills don't count.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: Daemon on March 03, 2018, 08:13:18 am
At this point, siege whores care much less for kills than they do for killing.


Title: Re: Nerfing Siege Camping
Post by: ValrogM on March 05, 2018, 09:19:54 pm
In that case, perhaps we could make ballistas very slow to turn and fire at a spot very slightly off from where the player aims?

Neither change would affect its ability to fire at buildings, which are large, but they would still make it less preferable a choice against players.