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Archive => Server Forum => Topic started by: Hethrep on January 30, 2007, 11:18:26 pm



Title: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Hethrep on January 30, 2007, 11:18:26 pm
Hi,

there are two things which in recent games have caught my attention:

  • Mining the spawnarea in front of a lair / stronghold - I think this should no longer be allowed, or at least not anymore in an endgame (definition: lair/sh is the only spawnpoint?). While tactical mining of tech etc. is fine, spawnmining is totally unfair and frustrating for the ones who find themselves spawning there, maybe only with a crossbow-wielding nomad, just to jump on a fireward and die. Or can somehow the spawnprotection be extended?
  • Beast repeatedly protected their flag with a certain player who behe-spawn-camped there, this got the player (not com, that is already in the rules) quite a few insults to say the least and various unfriendly votes. Is this a completely legit thing to do or should this maybe be limited?

Any opinions?


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: hell' on January 30, 2007, 11:24:41 pm
well - the behe-flag-camping - normally a player gets warned and then slayed for it (if done again - just slay) [btw. isn't that part of the server rules..?]

EDIT:
7. Players should NOT camp at spawn locations with siege units. Camping suggests that the unit is not attacking and waiting for someone to come close to kill them.

about the mines/wards in spawn areas... hmm - don't think that a rule or fix is usefull / needed


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Mats on January 31, 2007, 06:21:37 pm
There's a rule against siege camping again? Wasn't it removed months ago?

Anyway about the behes at flag thing. Beasts can camp flag with behes, humans can wall in flag with a few towers. I think that makes it even. The only times it sucks is if map is made in such a way that you can't attack a behe camping flag from far away, but then it's a problem with the map and it should be removed or fixed.


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Taggi on January 31, 2007, 06:29:24 pm
Yea behes at flag sucks but without them its impossible for beast to stop a buffed legio from taking the flag, even with 50towers around it.


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Taggi on January 31, 2007, 06:34:38 pm
Quote
There's a rule against siege camping again? Wasn't it removed months ago?

Yea i wondered about that, if dj or someone can confirm that we can ref against the siege idiots again, high five. Givf ref board again  :-)


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: hell' on January 31, 2007, 06:39:24 pm
http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,1437.msg24834.html#msg24834

i quoted from this post... so i guess it's an actual rule again.


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Taggi on January 31, 2007, 06:48:28 pm
Yes I know its in the list, but ex might have copyed from old list and forgot to remove it, but if its back then im sure as hell' gonna start using it   :-)


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Voldo on January 31, 2007, 06:53:18 pm
I dont mind the mining of spawnpoints - although it may be annoying to be killed by one when you spawn, this happens too infrequently.

The behe flag camping is (imo) a definite NO. It is possible to stop buffed units using other methods (snare and the like). Nobody enjoys a game where one player behes the flag.


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: xzor on January 31, 2007, 07:19:18 pm
As for the mine issue: I think that was fixed in SEP once, where spawning units would be immortal for a few seconds, so they could run away from fire wards. As it was also used so that you can spawn + hit, spawn + hit i guess it was removed again.. no clue how that is a reason, though.

the "SHOULD" in the rule suggests its not really kickable, but it also suggests that its IMPORTANT not to siege camp, else it wouldnt be mentioned in the server rules. So.. what to do? I think slaying would be a nice thing.


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: hell' on January 31, 2007, 07:24:18 pm
yeah - give one or two warnings in public chat to stop the camping as it will result in a slay - and if the player ignores it -> slay

my 2 cents


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Notausgang on January 31, 2007, 08:55:07 pm
As for the mine issue: I think that was fixed in SEP once, where spawning units would be immortal for a few seconds, so they could run away from fire wards. As it was also used so that you can spawn + hit, spawn + hit i guess it was removed again.. no clue how that is a reason, though.

the "SHOULD" in the rule suggests its not really kickable, but it also suggests that its IMPORTANT not to siege camp, else it wouldnt be mentioned in the server rules. So.. what to do? I think slaying would be a nice thing.
this feature does still exist and can be influenced via a server var. if the time is too short, dj maybe should rise it :wink:


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Django on February 01, 2007, 12:23:59 pm
Hi,

there are two things which in recent games have caught my attention:

  • Mining the spawnarea in front of a lair / stronghold - I think this should no longer be allowed, or at least not anymore in an endgame (definition: lair/sh is the only spawnpoint?). While tactical mining of tech etc. is fine, spawnmining is totally unfair and frustrating for the ones who find themselves spawning there, maybe only with a crossbow-wielding nomad, just to jump on a fireward and die. Or can somehow the spawnprotection be extended?
  • Beast repeatedly protected their flag with a certain player who behe-spawn-camped there, this got the player (not com, that is already in the rules) quite a few insults to say the least and various unfriendly votes. Is this a completely legit thing to do or should this maybe be limited?

Any opinions?


My opinion on these two problems are that trying to prevent them, with refs, will cause more issues than they will fix. Like last time when we had the siege camping rule it was to difficult to enforce, in a fair way and was open to too much abuse by refs. It also caused much bad feeling and animosity. I think we should learn from what happened last time and not have rules that are not feasible to implement.


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: DarkStar on February 01, 2007, 08:10:46 pm
Hi,

there are two things which in recent games have caught my attention:

  • Mining the spawnarea in front of a lair / stronghold - I think this should no longer be allowed, or at least not anymore in an endgame (definition: lair/sh is the only spawnpoint?). While tactical mining of tech etc. is fine, spawnmining is totally unfair and frustrating for the ones who find themselves spawning there, maybe only with a crossbow-wielding nomad, just to jump on a fireward and die. Or can somehow the spawnprotection be extended?
  • Beast repeatedly protected their flag with a certain player who behe-spawn-camped there, this got the player (not com, that is already in the rules) quite a few insults to say the least and various unfriendly votes. Is this a completely legit thing to do or should this maybe be limited?

Any opinions?


My opinion on these two problems are that trying to prevent them, with refs, will cause more issues than they will fix. Like last time when we had the siege camping rule it was to difficult to enforce, in a fair way and was open to too much abuse by refs. It also caused much bad feeling and animosity. I think we should learn from what happened last time and not have rules that are not feasible to implement.



/agree
Behem Camping sux, but their will always be someone doing it,  no matter what any ref/person does
about it. As for the land mining/firwarding lair/SH...people arent just going to "Stop" doing it. What i do, when beast get wards, or if humans get mines, i spawn with no items and weps, at place i wanna spawn, that way if i die, i dont lose anything, except get 1 score to deaths, which doesnt concern me. Anywasys, it would be A MIRACLE! to find a way to stop behem camping, and warding/mining lair and sh.


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: tanks on February 01, 2007, 08:24:50 pm
laying mines at spawn points is about as lame as it gets, it makes players like achilies get higher kills when they franky just suck.


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: hell' on February 01, 2007, 08:49:51 pm
it's more fun to hide the mines at the weirdest places... players get killed by surprise where they don't expect them  :roll:


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Voldo on February 01, 2007, 08:55:46 pm
it's more fun to hide the mines at the weirdest places... players get killed by surprise where they don't expect them  :roll:


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: born_to_be_noobish on February 01, 2007, 10:28:25 pm
I prefer to hide the mines too, great fun sometimes, when u down gars with it for example :) they run to the back for repair and kabam, no repair and damage to the gar.

man, i got to try to hit them with a mine when they run towards the shield to repair, it would pwn if they blew up the shield by tripping the mine.


Now, the most obvious way to stop siegecamping/spawnmines is to disable that tech :). If it really annoys u, put everything u have on disabling that tech. Usually, if it's the siege that stops you, when u disable it their entire defense falls. Ofc, that might be tricky to do without a nearby flag orso, but it's doable.
If it's a flag in the middle with no buildings aroudn and easy to retake for beast cause of a neraby hill orso, it's not really important to get the flag anyway, cause u cant hold it.
Ofc, sometimes, getting the flag is the key to victory.

Maybe we could change it so that behe cant capture flags anymore? that would fix a big part of the problem.


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: DarkStar on February 01, 2007, 10:50:22 pm

Maybe we could change it so that behe cant capture flags anymore? that would fix a big part of the problem.



that would be an interesting idea


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: hell' on February 02, 2007, 06:18:36 am
yeah - i like that idea as well


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: xzor on February 02, 2007, 06:55:22 am
then beasts would have no chance to get the flag as siege, summs cant and behes couldnt either, while both the ballista and catapult have a chance to get it when the players using them exit the siege..


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: hell' on February 02, 2007, 07:00:19 am
hmm - ok - good point.. didn't think about that (my bad)


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: DarkStar on February 02, 2007, 12:47:28 pm
then beasts would have no chance to get the flag as siege, summs cant and behes couldnt either, while both the ballista and catapult have a chance to get it when the players using them exit the siege..



hmmm...your right there, o well.  :evil:


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Mats on February 02, 2007, 03:18:44 pm
Just remove mines and firewards from the game, they don't really add very much to the gameplay imo. Sure it's nice to place them on clever places where people will run into them unexpectedly and firewards are pretty handy to spam at flags but overall I think the bad that comes from them far outweights that. 95% of the people who die from firewards and mines are just newbies anyway, might as well let them die some other way then to all the mine/fireward spammers.


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: OzzO on February 02, 2007, 03:24:09 pm
i dont think these rules would improve the gameplay, just bite your tongue or join a smaller server.

gr. OzzO


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Notausgang on February 02, 2007, 03:31:04 pm
hum... while we are at removing items fair playing ppl don't like: let's remove the relocator as well :-P


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Sheeproth on February 02, 2007, 03:32:09 pm
it's more fun to hide the mines at the weirdest places... players get killed by surprise where they don't expect them  :roll:

agreed


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: xzor on February 02, 2007, 04:16:12 pm
hum... while we are at removing items fair playing ppl don't like: let's remove the relocator as well :-P

sigh.. people who dislike relocs just never bothered to think about their uses  :?


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Notausgang on February 02, 2007, 04:32:59 pm
hum... while we are at removing items fair playing ppl don't like: let's remove the relocator as well :-P

sigh.. people who dislike relocs just never bothered to think about their uses  :?
heh... the main use is... a safe escape from enemies? (beast don't have anything as good, and it pisses beast players off to see their prey warp away...)
other uses might be... get back on the map when you jumped down *by accident*, or, very seldom used: trying to confuse beast players by warping around the battle field.

is there another secret use i fail to see? :|


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: xzor on February 02, 2007, 04:57:15 pm
hum... while we are at removing items fair playing ppl don't like: let's remove the relocator as well :-P

sigh.. people who dislike relocs just never bothered to think about their uses  :?
heh... the main use is... a safe escape from enemies? (beast don't have anything as good, and it pisses beast players off to see their prey warp away...)
other uses might be... get back on the map when you jumped down *by accident*, or, very seldom used: trying to confuse beast players by warping around the battle field.

is there another secret use i fail to see? :|

yea you did.. ive explained this plenty of times.. i think i have a thread in the private evo section, dunno if its still there but i once wrote a few lines for the relos, cant really be bothered to rewrite it tho. just think about the following - gold - moral of enemies - flags - sneak garrs - disadvantages (only 1 i could see)


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: hell' on February 02, 2007, 05:11:24 pm
I admit it - i like relos!

and about the disadvantage - only one i can come up with, is the blocked item spot in inventory... other than that i think eX said everything important


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: xzor on February 02, 2007, 06:36:56 pm
I admit it - i like relos!

and about the disadvantage - only one i can come up with, is the blocked item spot in inventory... other than that i think eX said everything important

just the disadvantage i meant. maybe someone in evo could check if my old post is still in the priv section and copy and paste it?


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Mats on February 02, 2007, 07:03:08 pm
Comparing reloc to mine/wards is pretty stupid. Reloc is pretty much vital for humans to have any chance to win(unless mega stacked). It would be nice if reloc had a 3-4 second delay before it took into effect, but removing it alltogether would be stupid. Reloc is nessecary to somewhat balance things with beasts superior movement speed.


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Sheeproth on February 02, 2007, 07:50:54 pm
It would be nice if reloc had a 3-4 second delay before it took into effect,

now that would be stupid ... it will be a case of see beast hit reloc and fire of a couple of shots just in-case you may get a kill. Also would be stupid for carn preds ... it means you are gonna die in melee a hell of alot more than usual


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Satan on February 02, 2007, 09:48:24 pm
Comparing reloc to mine/wards is pretty stupid. Reloc is pretty much vital for humans to have any chance to win(unless mega stacked). It would be nice if reloc had a 3-4 second delay before it took into effect, but removing it alltogether would be stupid. Reloc is nessecary to somewhat balance things with beasts superior movement speed.
Agree. Also...
Relocs are usefull because:
- humans can escape fire buffs. beasts can escape electric jumping far away
- humans have money issues, saves money
- with good players, can double humans strenght, as more can attack and go instant back to base to help defend. And beasts usually are more land takers, so it helps
- beasts have heal buffs, humans dont


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Mats on February 03, 2007, 12:36:07 am
It would be nice if reloc had a 3-4 second delay before it took into effect,

now that would be stupid ... it will be a case of see beast hit reloc and fire of a couple of shots just in-case you may get a kill. Also would be stupid for carn preds ... it means you are gonna die in melee a hell of alot more than usual

Just make it so that you have to hold the reloc thing in hand during this time, although then the duration should only be about 2 secs. This would make it so you would have to plan it a bit, not just go in melee and reloc instantly 1 hit from death.


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Sheeproth on February 03, 2007, 04:23:45 pm
it would never happen or work ...... ask shagroth about the idea he would say the same as me  :mrgreen:


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Mats on February 03, 2007, 10:37:15 pm
it would never happen or work ...... ask shagroth about the idea he would say the same as me  :mrgreen:

It likely won't happen but it would work when it comes to preventing instant relocing in middle of melee (tap block and reloc).


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: born_to_be_noobish on February 03, 2007, 11:33:58 pm
then beasts would have no chance to get the flag as siege, summs cant and behes couldnt either, while both the ballista and catapult have a chance to get it when the players using them exit the siege..

i dont c why beast need siege units that take flags. In most cases, hummies cant hold flags. Hummies need to have strong gar+tower placement to keep a flag. Beast is very good at taking flags.

Sure, u can roll to the flag with a cata and jump out, but u cant spawn cata and defend the flag. While with behe, u can smash most stuff that spawns and retake the flag at the same time. One nomad shouldnt really be problem for keeping your flag as beast. I have tried getting to the flag with a cata (gotta do something when out of ammo or when all the nearby subs/spires are down) and it aint easy. A cata is very easily stopped. A behe too. So both arent great at taking an enemy flag (a behe train on the other is pretty good, but i havent seen much behe trains on flags).

Now when it comes to spawning at a flag to defend it, when an enemy is about to take the flag and spawn massively at it, a cata is worthless. in most cases, u cant hit shit. A nomad can take the flag once, twice at most. If a nomad can retake the flag 3 times with hafl the beast team spawning there, the beast team got seriously pwned. WHile a behe can easily smash nearby defenders and anything that spawns. A cata loses it added value from being a cata when u exit it, a behe is still the big mean nomad flattener.

I personnally dont think removing the flag capture ability from the behe would handicap the beast team.
Beast has carn, which is nice around flags, beast has wind shield which helps alot too and beast has frenzy which also greatly helps. And gates, enableing beast to attack from unexpected directions. And the heal buff.
While humans do have disruptors and mag buff and speed buff and can get cata artillery support on the flag, it seems to be trickier for humans to take the flag and it certainly is harder to keep the flag. You can use mag to take the flag, but then what? often there is alot of beast nearby and the flag doesnt stay human long.

My point being, that while balli's and cata's can defend a flag, they cant hold a flag. While a behe, or 3 behe can easily hold a flag long enough to get at least 1-2 waves of beast spawning there. If u got a behe train spawning from a flag, it's near to impossible to retake that flag. Well, u can retake it, even with a nomad with xbow orso, but u cant hold on to it.


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: BrownAle on February 15, 2007, 02:32:30 am
Savage is a game about war... who ever said war is fair? The diffrents strenghs and abilitis of the races are the reason this game pwns so much and thats why nothing should be forbidden in this game. And btw i cant remember that a Behe at a flag ever stopped me on the way to Victory  :-)


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: born_to_be_noobish on February 15, 2007, 08:47:06 am
well, if they behetrain from a flag near to your base, there isnt much u can do.

but ofc, any decent behe train is difficult to stop.


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Chief_x2 on February 18, 2007, 12:16:57 am
Behe Camping. I know that it is bad and refs are either not always playing or they arent bothered. Then you kick someone and you hear all sorts of things.

But a behe capturing a flag is just not right, Human seige does not capture a flag period. Too bad beast cannot spawn from a behe. But as for behe capturing a flag i got 2 ideas.

1.) As no human siege can work on its on, hence it should me made so that Behe should need assistance. Dont get me wrong, the splash damage of a Cata is reduced to make sure its not one killing machine, So, if a behe cant hit something sitting inside its legs, it will make flag campinng a bit impossible. Offcourse more than 1 behe can hit each other and keep protecting but atleast that means their is some tactics or team work involved.

2.) a more extreme soultion, a behe gets a flag and he should die. i know its unfair but thats one solution easily implemented in sep.


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: EskiMo on February 18, 2007, 08:49:10 am
That mine/wards rule will make the game easyer -_-


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: Burnsie on February 20, 2007, 01:21:17 am
Haha I agree with your earlier comment on the first page hell', it's really funny when you nail someone with a cheeky landmine/fireward. I have to say, I do find it kinda irritating when your stronghold entrance is mined, but look at it this way, it's absolutely fantastic when you are the one laying the mines!  :roll:


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: hell' on February 20, 2007, 08:32:24 am
That mine/wards rule will make the game easyer -_-

It's not a set rule but a suggestion...


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: nurizeko on February 20, 2007, 12:01:10 pm
Quote
But a behe capturing a flag is just not right, Human seige does not capture a flag period.

I was thinking about this, and originally I was agreed behe camping may be bad, but then I remembered.....Human have hill jumping, range firing artillery peices for seige.

Beast have.....a fragile little summ that gets wasted by one nomad, and a big slow moving target, that is basically useless unless in a behe train at end-game.


As for spawn mining, I dunno.......TBH I personally don't think much of it or the people who do it, but then again thats one guys opinion.

I've taken to taking wards/mines more often, as my only weapons, and placing them imaginatively.

I have found myself getting better ratios, even without a main weapon or melee enchantment.

Its also amazing how many folk run into wards and mines in the open, or how a mine/ward in the open thats being avoided, can catch an enemy or two when their concentrating too much on shooting/fighting a pred.

As for Reloc, In any other game it would be a cheap cheap tactic which would have been patched/modded out ages ago.

Still, reloc doesn't seem to really unbalance the game overall, sure it denies you your kill, but I've never seen a relocced lego somehow unbalance the game suddenly in human favour, if only because, from my own experience, its quite feasible to totaly waste a lego before he even knows what hit him.

I've been dropped dead within the split second its taken for a pred to leap at me, bypass my block, and If I manage to get a swing in, somehow dodge my axe.

Relocs should stay, I take them and I can assure you, unless I play extremely paranoid and reloc at the first sign of trouble, more often then not I get dropped before I can reach for the activator button.

Wards/mines also are a valid tool for the game, they impede the enemy, help sure up the defenses of a choke point.

A well placed mine/ward can be the difference between a lego/pred rampanging aronud a sensitive area of your territory, or a hit sound, a kill message, and a dead enemy soaking up the sun on his back, waiting for respawn.


Title: Re: Server Rules: Mining Lair/SH spawnpoints & Beheflagcamping
Post by: born_to_be_noobish on March 01, 2007, 12:39:02 am
relocs are needed for balance. they help to preserve gold for hummies. Personally, i dont use them, but when i used to use them they did help me to keep my gold at more reasonable lvls.

About the flag, beast has carn, sac and fire buff too, i dont really feel the behe cant take flag would inbalance the game.
Mostly, as i said, hummies cant hold a flag. Beast can.