Newerth Forums

Archive => Savage XR Videos => Topic started by: H3027 on September 03, 2011, 03:26:31 pm



Title: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on September 03, 2011, 03:26:31 pm
Savage XR Melee Tutorial

Instead of doing it the complicated (almost impossible) way with live recording a full duel tutorial demo, I'll just cut everything into a video with keyboard & mouse overlay and a bunch of explanations beforehand about hitboxes, attack window and mouse sens. The tutorial will be voice acted by Lea Gulino with the option to add youtube subtitles in different languages later.

http://piratepad.net/meleetutorial


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on September 03, 2011, 03:26:43 pm
BEAST PART IDEAS/DRAFT


1.
Melee Tutorial Demo

1.1
Introduction and setup

Welcome to the Savage Melee Combat Tutorial!

The combat in Savage is simple but sophisticated. Humans can block or attack while Beasts can leap and attack. Notice that a result of being blocked is a small mini stun of 600 ms. This typically allows humans enough time to return a hit.
(showing both)

Before we start with the combat training we will have a look at a setting that is crucial for your Savage experience, the mouse sensitivity.

For a basic guide your melee weapon you should be able turn your unit 360 degrees during the space of one jump. Your ranged weapon should still be able to precisely hit any target within a 90 degree arc in front of you. Most players use dual sensitivity in order to satisfy these requirements. You can find the mouse sensitivity in the player options, along with the check box for dual sensitivity.

1.2
Basics

Beginning with the Beast race, let's take a look at a basic forward leap attack.
(doing 3 hits and leaps together with W, without moving the mouse)
This is the most striaghtforward way to attack your opponent, however, it is easily countered. Leaping sideways and attacking while being slightly less straightforward is also very predictable.
(leaping frontally and getting blocked, then attacking sideways and getting blocked)
Leaps can counter blocks and blocks can counter leaps. What matters is how you perform them. But before we start with the counter methods we will have a look at the technical aspects of the game.


1.3
Stamina Hit

The block is a mini stun that lasts 600 ms and allows your opponent to hit you.

**copy/paste** But in most of the cases - unless his reaction is extremely fast or you are just slow - he won't be able to reblock and you can perform the so called stamina hit and hit him back just after he hit you.**copy/paste**

Remember that you can't use the Stamina hit against Savages and Nomads, as they can easily reblock.


1.4
Stamina & Rabid

This revenge hit is called stamina hit because Beasts often use a melee enhanchment called "Rabid" that gives Stamina back based on hit damage. Rabid allows you to keep leaping and killing infinitely, as long as you have enough health points and as long as you don't get blocked and killed.

What is Stamina? Stamina is what you need to perform your leaps, jumps or sprinting. You can find the stamina bar on the right bottom in bright blue. Don't let it go below 15%, or it will increase slowly. Under level 5 you can perform 3 leaps with full stamina, above level 5 you can perform 5 leaps.


1.5
Hitboxes

The human block builds a 180 degree arc in front of you. He can block instantly without delay. Savage uses generic hits. Imagine a sword. The hit direction depends on your mouse movements. You can't just stand next to your opponent and press the attack button to hit behind the block - as the animation might suggest. As you see, the leap ability combined with a mouse flick is crucial to get around the block.


2.0
Get into Position

Stand next to your opponent and go 2 steps back to get into a good position. Don't aim at his body, aim about one body width next to him! As a general guideline: Look as much down that the head of your opponent almost touches the top of your screen. Seeing the situation from above will help you estimating the leap distance better.


2.1
Backstab

The backstab is the most basic way to counter a human block. The first Predator attack is slower than the leap, that's why you have to press the Left Mouse button first, then wait 0.2 seconds, then press the Right Mouse button together with W. When your leap is 80% finished, perform a quick 180 degree mouse flick to the left side.

Most people doing this the first time will either leap too early, stand too far away, turn too early, too slow or too late. Aim and hold your mouse down on the table and don't move it until it's time for the backstab. Practice this backstab until you get a solid aim and timing, then proceed to the next step.

Let's try a fake hit. Get into the right position again, hit the first time into the air, then press Left and right mouse button and W together and perform the backstab. The second attack is fast enough, you can time the leap at the same time.

Let's try two fake hits. Get into the right position, hit two times into the air, then press the all 3 buttons together and perform the backstab.

Now let's try the backstab and the 2 fake hits on the other side. Get into the right position on the left side of your opponent. It works exactly the same way, just that you perform the backstab into the opposite direction. Just move your mouse towards the body of your opponent.

Now let's perform 2 hits in a row. One right and one left. Get into position on the right side again. Most people will have difficulties to aim fast enough to get the second hit right. Try to perform your mouse flick exactly 180 degrees, so you will automatically aim into the perfect direction for the second hit. Don't stress, and take the time you need to aim correctly - but don't take too much time, or you'll have to start with the first attack again.

Most people keep the W button continously pressed, but as long as you're not very fast at aiming it is better to press W for each leap again.

Now let's try 3 hits in a row. One right, one left and one right.
Go slowly, turn exactly 180 degrees and take enough time for aiming. That's how it looks from above, you're leaping exactly in one line.

Now try the same 3 hits on the other side. One left, one right, one left.

Now, lets attack 3 times the left side only. You have to turn your mouse only about 140 degrees. You will leap a triangle or fish.

Now, lets do the same with the right side only.


2.2
Timing

You've now learned the basic mouse movements. Now let's have a look at timing of your hits.
The Predator has a 3 hit combo. The first hit is the slowest, the second hit the fastest and the third hit the most risky, because of the cooldown that follows. The fastest hit speed is almost double as fast as the slowest.
The best way to learn the time window:

Press "Page Down" for continuous attack. That's the fastest attack speed possible.
Go to a predator NPC and hit him once. Then stand in front of him and try to attack with the same speed. That's the slowest attack speed possible.

Now try to perform the Backstabs you've learned before with different attack speed.
Do them as slow as possible first. Then speed up until you attack at the maximum speed. You can also use continuous attack to get the right feeling for it.


2.3
Bouncing

Bouncing is a technique which allows you to move faster and further with less stamina. Bouncing is usually combined with Bunnyhops to keep the speed a bit longer.
The speed advantage is obvious. (Show comparation) One bounce is like 2.5 leaps but costs 46% less stamina.

Bouncing & Bunnihopping is mainly used for 3 things:
- Traveling faster to certain placed on the map or between enemies in fights
- Attacking from far away
- Getting out of range after attacking

2.3.1 Bunnyhopping
Let's try a bounce followed with bunnyhops: Push W first, shortly afterwards the right mouse button together with the "Space" key. Hold W always down and press "Space" everytime you touch the ground.

2.3.2 Late Bounce
Bouncing can be used to attack from far away.
Go close to the right side of your opponent and go 4-5 steps back go get into a good position. Push "Space" together with W and the right mouse button.

2.3.3 Early Bounce
You've learned to use bounces to attack from far away. But bounces are very useful as well to get out of range when you're close.
Stand close next to your opponent, then press attack and bounce backwards with S.

2.3.4 Bouncing off Blocks
This works also to bounce off blocks.
Stand in front of your opponent and bounce with S shortly after your attack.

It is also possible to attack from far away and get out of range with bouncing off blocks.
Go 3-4 steps back and perform a regular bounce backstab. As the bounce is slow, there's a good chance your opponent will be able to block his back on time. As soon as you perform the mouse flick switch from W to S and bunnyhop twice.

Now practice bouncing with all attacks the tutorial introduced before. Only bounce when it's needed. Be aware that your control over your Predator while flying in the air is much reduced. Bouncing from far away is predictable and easy to block.


2.4
Multileaping

People talk about multileaping when they perform 2 leaps or more for one single attack. Multileaping is the fastest way to attack from far away or to perform moves with increased speed and confusion, but it also costs more stamina.

To get started with multileaping, stand still and press A and D while pressing the right mouse button. Make sure you press the leap button not too early, or you won't leap at all.
Repeat the same zigzag with W and S.

Let's try it combined with a hit. Look how easily you can escape a freeswing by leaping back and forth.

You can also escape by leaping sideways and then forward. Stand close to your opponent and wait until he attacks, then attack and leap D and W or A and W.

We can also use multileaps to bounce off blocks. Stand 4 steps away from your opponent, then attack and leap with W, in the moment he blocks we leap back with S and bounce.

Popular variations of multileaping are


2.5
Advanced Mousework

Advanced Mousework requires a lot of experience, but is the most effective way to duel with minimal use of stamina. Mouse movements in Savage are completely unrestricted in any moment. That's what we're going to exploit now.

Advanced Mousework is boiled down to letting your opponent never know which side you're going to attack. Only in the very last moment you're changing the direction where you're leaping at. Required is a solid speed aim.

Let's practice that aim without leaping first. Stand on the left side of your opponent, press attack, wait 0.2 seconds and turn your mouse 90 degrees to the right side and back again. You've hit your opponent with a very fast and unexpected mouse flick.

Let's do this with leap now. Attack, wait 0.2 seconds, turn your mouse 90 degrees, leap and turn it back.

Let's try the same on the other side and with 180 degree flick.

You can of course combine advanced mousework with multileaping.


3.1
Duelling

The big difference in real duels is that the opponents move constantly, which makes it really hard to aim.

A basic rule is: stand close to your opponent. This will prevent him from using ranged weapons and minimize the reaction time required to block your leaps. Don't bounce too much. Your attacks are more predictable and slower, and the opponent has enough time to use medkits.


3.2
Terrain Control
Competitive server settings don't allow beasts to leap uphills, which gives the gameplay an additional depth of terrain control. Always try to reach higher grounds. If you have to fight uphills, stand even closer than usual, use sprint, bounces and more sideway leaps.


HUMAN PART IDEAS/DRAFT



...


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: Nanaa on September 03, 2011, 03:59:27 pm
Making this will be very hard. Since you can't cut demos, recording must succeed in one run. The players are forced to perform extremely clean mouse(/keyboard)work... but if they fuck up some part, the whole thing must be restarted. It could be a very frustrating experience for the makers... depends on how long and complicated it's gonna be tho

Other than that, I give my thumbs up for the idea. Having a 5 mb demo tutorial compared to having a 500 mb video tutorial is a good idea. Especially, since the game itself is ~500 mb in size.


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: HaveFaith on September 03, 2011, 04:10:46 pm
mission impossible...


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on September 03, 2011, 04:25:50 pm
Alright, I've added some long ass draft above. This is my main concern:

I want you to reflect about the methods of teaching newbies.
How to start, what to exactly include in what exact order and how to end?


So far there have been made only Beast tutorials, but I'd like to add human part too.
http://www.noobflicks.com/watch/2695/pred_tutorial_test
http://www.noobflicks.com/watch/3291/bouncing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQeRgGpa1GM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E8u0sxqd04

Always keep the limits in mind: there are no cuts in the demo. If you want to show different perspectives you'lll have to add more players.


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: Zyxoma on September 03, 2011, 06:56:45 pm
Mouse control is very important and I think it needs a bit more attention. Doing something like the simple backstab already requires more mouse control then just spinning 50  times and forget where you stand.

Human tutorial would be nice too, since everyone always try's to improve their beast while there is a lot to accomplish with training humans too.
For humans movement is very important and focus on the same things as the beast tutorial but then how to counter their moves ^^.
Specially because a lot of people use "combo's" or certain moves that their used to.

Is there also gonna be a part about scavenger/nomad and savage/stalker? Because knowing how to fight early in the game can be more then usefull.


btw, I can help playing as human/beast.


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: Feathers on September 03, 2011, 06:59:17 pm
is there going to be a commander tutorial after you've finished beasts


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on September 03, 2011, 07:01:28 pm
is there going to be a commander tutorial after you've finished beasts

If someone is going to create it, sure. Remember that mouse movements are not recorded in demos. The commander tutorial would have to be interactive (with triggers).


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: Zaitev on September 03, 2011, 07:03:59 pm
What is Stamina? Stamina is what you need to perform your leaps, jumps or sprinting. You can find the stamina bar on the right bottom in bright blue. Don't let it go below 15%, or it will increase slowly.
Maybe you could change 'or it will increase slowly' into 'or it will increase slower than it usually does.'

2.3.1 Bunnyhopping
Let's try a bounce followed with bunnyhops: Push W first, shortly afterwards the right mouse button together with the "Space" key. Hold W always down and press "Space" everytime you touch the ground.
Maybe change the last sentence to 'Keep holding W, and press "space" everytime you touch the ground'.


Enough grammar bitching :P.

The draft is written as if the player can perform the actions right at that moment, but he's actually looking at a demo. Maybe it'd be good to tell the player what he's looking at in the first few sentences so he doesn't start pushing buttons that will close, forward or rewind the demo.

Sounds like a tricky project! But it will also be pretty cool when it's done and implemented. Thumbs up!  :mrgreen:


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on September 03, 2011, 07:36:53 pm
@Zaitev: That draft needs a major revision. This is not the time to worry about grammar  :wink:


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: Daemon on September 04, 2011, 08:07:21 am
I suggest splitting it in about 3 parts. It's better than doing the big one 10 times and always getting something wrong at some point or another and redoing it all from scratch.

1. Defensive Moves.
2. Offensive Moves.
3. Rabid/carni comparison

or

1. Basic moves
2. Intermediate moves
3. Combos and timing

Something like this.


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on September 04, 2011, 10:50:14 am
I suggest splitting it in about 3 parts. It's better than doing the big one 10 times and always getting something wrong at some point or another and redoing it all from scratch.

1. Defensive Moves.
2. Offensive Moves.
3. Rabid/carni comparison

or

1. Basic moves
2. Intermediate moves
3. Combos and timing

Something like this.


Well, that would be an option, however if everyone else fails, I'd rather play it myself than splitting it up.

1. Basics - Backstab
2. Timing - Avanced Mousework
3. Duels - Stalker/Scavenger
4. Humans - Savage/Nomad


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: Daemon on September 04, 2011, 11:20:42 am
There's also the issue of re-watching specific parts. No point in having to browse through the entire course to re-watch only certain moves, easier to find by splitting and structuring it.


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: Bullet on September 05, 2011, 07:23:43 pm
Split the demo up to more demos. I support daemons idča, but in categories. It's an advantage to have short demo's because the user doesn't have to watch/ forward his way trough a 10 minute demo when he only want to watch that specific part of savage melee combat he doesn't understand.

Make a submenu in each of the races (human & beast).

like this:

beasts :

- Before you begin (mouse & settings tips + graphics)
- Basic attack/leaping
- Advanced leaping

human :
- Before you begin (mouse, settings and so on.. )
- basic block/attack
- Advanced blocking

everything that isn't mentioned here, the player should be able to learn by himself in the game over time. I don't think the tutorial should be supposed to cover the whole melee-combat system, it's too much information for newbies at that time. Give them the basics, and the rest they will learn by themself :)

Just my opinion :)


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: Tjens on September 07, 2011, 11:18:03 pm
Just throwing this out there: first make a mock draft of the tutorial, and make it 3 minutes tops. People who will spend more than 10 minutes listening to:

Quote
Now let's perform 2 hits in a row. One right and one left. Get into position on the right side again. Most people will have difficulties to aim fast enough to get the second hit right. Try to perform your mouse flick exactly 180 degrees, so you will automatically aim into the perfect direction for the second hit. Don't stress, and take the time you need to aim correctly - but don't take too much time, or you'll have to start with the first attack again.

Will be the ones already thrown hours into the game anyway, and won't need the tutorial. And it will be just a gimmick. An overly long one.

Shit, I'm like a Savage vet and was starting to get bored at the word "exactly" already.

Make it short and sound, not tedious and precise.


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on September 09, 2011, 11:47:51 am
Just throwing this out there: first make a mock draft of the tutorial, and make it 3 minutes tops. People who will spend more than 10 minutes listening to:

Quote
Now let's perform 2 hits in a row. One right and one left. Get into position on the right side again. Most people will have difficulties to aim fast enough to get the second hit right. Try to perform your mouse flick exactly 180 degrees, so you will automatically aim into the perfect direction for the second hit. Don't stress, and take the time you need to aim correctly - but don't take too much time, or you'll have to start with the first attack again.

Will be the ones already thrown hours into the game anyway, and won't need the tutorial. And it will be just a gimmick. An overly long one.

Shit, I'm like a Savage vet and was starting to get bored at the word "exactly" already.

Make it short and sound, not tedious and precise.

Besides this melee tutorial being made for players that have already spent few hours at the game (and that have already finished human and beast tutorial before) – i.e. it can easily be longer than 3 minutes –, the draft text above is indeed not (yet) laxly and irresponsibly worded, which is certainly a good starting position to work on the spoken text.


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: Nanaa on November 22, 2011, 02:38:31 pm
Shouldn't we start working on this project? I can volunteer to try that beast part. Generally I aim accurately in melee


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on November 22, 2011, 04:12:59 pm
Yeah, we definitely should, since I don't have the capacities to do everything alone until XR is released - at least not in accordance with my quality standards. When I write a concept of a project here at newerth I only do this to get you guys involved with giving feedback and helping to realize it.

I'm glad that you're offering your help as an actor, Nanaa, but there is still a lot of cutting and polishing needed with the manuscript before we can finally start with the practical part. :p


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on November 22, 2011, 05:28:10 pm
The first job would be simplifying this text enough to make it easy to understand - also for non-native speaking persons - as well as dividing the tutorial into relatively short parts as suggested by Daemon and Bullet. I'd personally make the tutorial more detailed in the begin and add the more advanced moves with less explanations.

http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,13947.msg161891.html#msg161891


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: ENvIouS on November 22, 2011, 10:38:53 pm
May I suggest a quick vocab review section? This would clarify terms even more for the new savage player.


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: Faun on March 12, 2012, 06:55:42 pm
scripting "bluescreened" moves for bots here would be great... aka. "The predator will now try to backstab you. Turn and block to defend yourself." "go!" ---


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: Rio D'Oro on April 27, 2012, 08:04:49 am
Any news about this ? :)
Im willing to help somehow :)


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: Daemon on April 27, 2012, 08:07:55 am
I'll send you the Beast tutorial EMO, which is not the same with the melee tutorial.


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: Rio D'Oro on April 27, 2012, 09:39:19 am
oh sorry :) didnt found a topic about beast tutorial so i thought it was this one here :) since melee is a huge part for beasts :)


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: Hakugei on April 27, 2012, 09:40:52 am
Melee is also a huge part of human. :-D


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: Rio D'Oro on April 27, 2012, 09:43:01 am
Ye ye :)


Title: Re: Official In-game Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on July 29, 2013, 02:29:54 pm
After finishing the XR trailer I will continue working on my Melee Tutorial instead of the suggested Melee Combat Show video. I think that makes more sense. Elements of the Melee Combat Show could still be implemented as appetizer. The Melee Tutorial will be available on youtube and for download (with royality free music). So, no in-game tutorial, as that's too hard to perform and coordinate. A video based tutorial has even the advantage that you can practice in-game and switch out to the browser againto watch the next steps.


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on September 21, 2013, 08:54:19 pm
Savage XR Melee Tutorial

I hope to finish this project rather quickly. Instead of doing it the complicated (almost impossible) way with live recording a full duel tutorial demo, I'll just cut everything into a video with keyboard & mouse overlay and a bunch of explanations beforehand about hitboxes, attack window and mouse sens. The tutorial will be voice acted by Lea Gulino with the option to add youtube subtitles in different languages later.

Concept under construction: http://piratepad.net/meleetutorial
(feel free to add/change stuff)


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on July 27, 2014, 03:07:19 pm
I was actually considering doing the whole Melee Tutorial against bots on the duel_tutor2 practice map from the tutorial section, but that doesn't seem to work since the newbies will be told to practice against targets that don't move first. While duel arena 3 has a bot that only blocks and doesn't attack, he will continuously try to stand as close as possible to you, which isn't really helpful when you're trying to keep 2 steps distance before attacking. Furthermore he blocks randomly, which isn't exactly the ideal feedback for a newbie trying to learn a move, when it sometimes work and sometimes not although the newbie did it right each time. What would be needed is a bot that doesn't move and just blocks (not randomly) with a little delay, so each time the newbie does the backstab right, it won't get blocked as well - which is the realistic scenario against low to average skilled players.

Where the duel practice map could be used is to practice multi-leaping, i.e. waiting until the bot attacks, then performing an escape leap + backstab. For general duel practicing (backstabs, bouncing) the bots can be recommended, though a big downside is that the bots only care about the unit position and ignore where your unit aims at. Hence advanced mousework (mouse fakes) is much much less effective than against real humans. That's bad, because it will take an important role in the tutorial.

Considering all that I will probably create a new duel map with a single NPC Legionnaire like on duel_garden_beta11 that doesn't move and doesn't hit you either. The tutorial will then tell you to type:

/checkmapversion xr_duel_practice
/world xr_duel_practice

to download and load the map.


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: Daemon on July 27, 2014, 04:31:49 pm
You can change its speed to 0.


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on July 27, 2014, 04:59:24 pm
You can change its speed to 0.

There's nothing documented about that.


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: Daemon on July 27, 2014, 06:55:10 pm
objEdit human_legionnaire; objSet speed 0

To put it back to how it was:

objEdit human_legionnaire; objSet speed 1.750000

Just like the NPC on duel_garden_beta11.


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on July 27, 2014, 07:12:18 pm
The NPCs on duel_garden don't move because I was simply lucky back in 2007. I wasn't able to reproduce that bug on any other map. It's the terrain and stronghold/lair position that bugs their pathing.

As I see it, there are 3 options:
1. re-designing duel_garden with XR props to keep that awesome NPC pathing, recording the duel tutorial on it, i.e. exactly where I expect newbies to practice it too, so they can translate it 1:1
2. recording the tutorial on a new duel map against real (dummy) opponents, but suggesting locations where to practice it (duel_garden/practice map), as it has been done on my unfinished duel tutorial from 2007
3. creating a new persona that doesn't move and has delayed aimbot, but instant block, for the duel practice map and recording the whole tutorial there, so newbies can simply change persona and practice the same way


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: jazzking on July 27, 2014, 07:34:30 pm
I like option 1. I can try to write a persona that does #3 if it would help, the problem is that getting that getting such a persona on client's coputers requires an XR update. I would actually like such a persona for personal use.

I absolutely agree about the bots being more useful for reactions/timings than creating hits that are hard to block. I used to turn on sv_bothardcoremode and pratice vs the freeswinging persona and it was super useful. IMO the personas with good blocks are essentially impossible to hit without either
a. hitting when the legio is "reloading" his block,
b. baiting a swing, for example with a bounce.
c. backhitting from very close, so that legio doesn't rotate fast enough.
These tricks are kind of useful against humans but not past a certain level: decent humans time their blocks to pred swings, move away from preds to give themselves more reaction time, chase down bouncers without insta-swinging, etc.
I stopped dueling vs the blocking personas because I was learning bad habits.


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on July 29, 2014, 10:13:19 am
Retextured duel_garden and added triggers:
http://www.newerth.com/?id=maps&mid=2541

Missing are paint layer, props, trees, effects and NPCs.

I haven't found any time delay game script in the tutorial and other maps, but is it possible to activate a teleporter 3 seconds after entering a trigger?
At the moment I used the position based jumppad workaround, so afk people stuck in the duel area selection mechanism will get teleported back to base.


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on July 25, 2015, 02:17:12 pm
Retextured duel_garden and added triggers:
http://www.newerth.com/?id=maps&mid=2541

Missing are paint layer, props, trees, effects and NPCs.

I haven't found any time delay game script in the tutorial and other maps, but is it possible to activate a teleporter 3 seconds after entering a trigger?
At the moment I used the position based jumppad workaround, so afk people stuck in the duel area selection mechanism will get teleported back to base.

25.8.2014
<Clemens> I don't think an area trigger can be combined with a timer.
<Clemens> But they exist as two separate triggers.
<Tirza> I would need a time trigger that activates a teleport trigger after 3 seconds
<Clemens> Regardless, what you can do is use a normal area trigger to trigger when someone is inside and periodically increase a cvar that counts how long they've been in it.
<Clemens> And once that cvar reaches a certain amount, do your teleport stuff.
<Tirza> ah, that's sounds like what I was looking for
<Clemens> If you want to be even fancier, you can use another area trigger to check when they enter/leave to reset the cvar.
<Clemens> Additionally, I suggest using an own cvar for every player, rather than using just one cvar in total.
<Tirza> does that cvar work for multiple players?
<Tirza> ah
<Clemens> By using their gs_object_id or gs_object_nick.
<Clemens> Let me look up how it's done.
<Clemens> Been a LONG time.
<Tirza> :)
<Clemens> "set _cvarname_#gs_object_id# 1"
<Clemens> The result is cvar with the name... _cvarname_0
<Clemens> #gs_object_id# is replaced, literally in the name, with the client id.
<Tirza> yes
<Clemens> That all should work.
<Clemens> Done with the post, but need to get a screenshot from in-game first.
<Clemens> The list is longer than I thought.
<Tirza> now I need to get the cvar to count up with the game time
<Tirza> I got no idea where to even find these cvars
<Clemens> http://www.newerth.com/wiki/index.php?title=XR_Script_Triggers
<Clemens> But game time isn't the same as elapsed time.
<Clemens> So either manually add time by rule of thumb, or store game time in an own cvar "old time" and calculate the elapsed time from that.
<Tirza> manually adding time by counting server frames or soemthing?
<Clemens> Sort of.
<Clemens> If you know the trigger occurs 20 times a second (20 FPS), then you approximately know how much time will pass each trigger.
<Clemens> It won't be exact, but I don't think that matters in this case.
<Clemens> You can also just add +1 each time, and once it reaches 60 is basically like 3 seconds.
<Clemens> Instead of actually doing time.





Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on July 25, 2015, 02:21:18 pm
After 8 years I think it's time for this to get done.  :lol:


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: Daemon on July 25, 2015, 02:24:52 pm
2014 looks more like last year.


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on July 25, 2015, 02:35:12 pm
2014 looks more like last year.

No, I started doing the tutorial in 2007


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on July 26, 2015, 02:58:34 pm
Melee Tutorial HUD is scripted (1, 2, 3 will be removed for Beasts):

(http://abload.de/img/meleetutorial05shr.jpg) (http://abload.de/img/meleetutorial05shr.jpg)


Oups, forgot the stamina bars:

(http://abload.de/img/meleetutorial2uasd8.jpg) (http://abload.de/img/meleetutorial2uasd8.jpg)


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on July 26, 2015, 05:15:33 pm
Test with a bad looking ground texture:

1
bboWipgQrIU

2
XY890LXVCTs

3
hKLPJsSr85E

4
C0YKl80gqy8

5
OsVX6973rH4

6
BdU25XHFZPs

While stamina and health bars aren't really necessary, but nice to have, most important is to have keys and mouse together otherwise it's much harder to grasp the relevant info. What's your favourite?


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: Stringer on July 26, 2015, 07:02:40 pm
I find it easier to grasp relative timing of key/button presses when keyboard and mouse pictures are close together.
(For example, the fact that left mouse button is pressed before 'W' key is immediately obvious in first and third video, but much harder to notice in the second one)


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: Gridfon on July 26, 2015, 08:36:45 pm
"HP/stamina left, keys right" looks best because all relevant information is on the same side of the screen.


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: jazzking on July 26, 2015, 11:35:45 pm
I have the same opinion as Gridfon.

I'm not sure how you mean to express this but blocks only happen if the predator actually hits the legio's hurt-box in the colored arc. If you hit the arc but not the hurtbox, nothing happens. Maybe it's obvious, and it's hard to really express that graphically, but I thought it should be noted.

Btw, are you able to output positional and directional info directly from the game? A top-down view of a whole duel with visible hitboxes would enlighten a lot of people as to what's going on.


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on July 27, 2015, 06:46:56 am
I have the same opinion as Gridfon.

I'm not sure how you mean to express this but blocks only happen if the predator actually hits the legio's hurt-box in the colored arc. If you hit the arc but not the hurtbox, nothing happens. Maybe it's obvious, and it's hard to really express that graphically, but I thought it should be noted.

Btw, are you able to output positional and directional info directly from the game? A top-down view of a whole duel with visible hitboxes would enlighten a lot of people as to what's going on.


The only additional info a realistic top view would give is that of position and partially that of direction.

The graphical view however is able to show position and direction (very clearly). It also shows how the attack box looks in reality (which is an important part in the tutorial) and that it's active only for a very short time. It also let's you analyse how much earlier you could have leaped while still being able to hit. And it's also easier to understand that the block only blocks when it touches the attack box during an active (red moment), something that stays a complete mistery in the realistic top view. If the attack box was active during the whole hit, you coudn't even flank him that closely in the first place as you would run into his block as soon as you press the left mouse button.

(http://abload.de/img/block_attack1gqg4.jpg)


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: jazzking on July 27, 2015, 03:16:32 pm
I didn't mean use the engine to show the top-down view. Just to output the data from it so you don't have to move things by hand in after effects.


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on July 27, 2015, 04:29:09 pm
I didn't mean use the engine to show the top-down view. Just to output the data from it so you don't have to move things by hand in after effects.

Oh, yes. That would be theoretically possible with a python script. I actually considered it too for Lecacy's fragmovie. Though it would still be a lot of work since the output has no usuable time code defining start and end and is in server fps (which can vary a lot in amount and especially lenght of each frame). While fetching stamina and health data is fairly easy, turning position and camera data into something useable takes considerably more effort. Anyways, controlling the buttons and animating the schemata is very fast and easy in AfterEffects after all that preparation work I've been doing yesterday.  :mrgreen:


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: H3027 on July 27, 2015, 04:41:15 pm
As for the HUD, I also think 3 and 4 are the best:

3
hKLPJsSr85E

4
C0YKl80gqy8


4 has the advantage that I've got more space for the mouse to perform moves that go multiple times to the same side. Plus the title "Basic Backstab" is aligned to the very left without menu/previous chapter/next chapter in between. So, for a download version of the tutorial I could easily remove these control elements without having to adjust the title. Though I could also just keep them there. And the mouse space in 3 is probably enough for combos backstabbing 3 times one side.


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: jazzking on July 29, 2015, 05:39:33 pm
4 looks great too. Particularly good since health and stamina correspond approximately to their position in the in-game hud.

I'm very interested in the python script idea. Once you have position and orientation vectors, I have some ideas for how to convert these into simple, centered coordinates and angles. The main concept is to average P1 and P2's positions at every frame and subtract that average from the two. This keeps them fixed around origin.

For angles, you just need some trigonometry to convert vectors into angles, and then you can translate P1 and P2 angles so that P1 starts out looking "up" on the screen.

As for the server FPS problem, well the server values sent to the client are half the story. The client maintains its own set of projected values which it updates every game frame and uses for the graphics. (This is why high pingers don't have to wait to see themseslves moving on screen.) You could try to capture these values.

Anyway, I'll look into it. Once a script is written it could be possible to set up a top-down graphic for duel competition vods, etc.


Edit: Not sure if some of this info is available to client scripts. TBD


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: jazzking on July 30, 2015, 05:01:16 am
So I'm starting to think that other players' positions aren't accessible to client scripts, probably to protect against aimbots. I'd love to be corrected though.

The only other option is a server-side script. If anyone knows how to execute a server script during a client demo replay, hit me up. Probably not possible though.

Edit: A third option is to parse the demo file. A bit complicated though since it involves learning all about the netcode. Looks like Rigoletto made some progress here though:
http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,15875.msg177275.html#msg177275
http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,15917.0.html

Any advice appreciated. (Most helpful would be some way to access nearby player's positions and directions using client script).


Title: Re: Savage XR Melee Tutorial
Post by: Fallacy on September 15, 2015, 01:52:13 am
It's definitely good but no number is good. I cant pay attention to the mouse and the pred at the same time let alone any of the other things. I wouldn't worry about throwing the mouse on the preds back and keys below. Transparent or opaque with button press  opaque. It may be a bit disorientating with the pred lerp though. The block/hit boxs are very nice, did take me a while to catch on though, it also needs to be closer. There is a spot diagonally up from the center of unit that we never use in 1v1 situations that you could put it in, or the mouse and keys in each.

Peripheral vision is a tricky thing it can only be focused when your are not focusing because so much of it is just our imagination. Find an animation or just imagine; on a plain background, a red circle, make it bigger, put a black dot in, it shrink it back, fade it to pink, fade to white. - "Has it changed yet."
I think that sums it up, being able to tell the when the right is being clicked when the left was already down, no no.
Without reference points which the grass texture has very little, proportions to where the colour is relatively in your view is hard.
Using different colours for different buttons comes with way too many challenges.

Peripheral can only be good if they're learned, mini map or CoD for example.