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Savage XR => First generation changes => Topic started by: Daemon on August 23, 2011, 08:33:27 am



Title: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Daemon on August 23, 2011, 08:33:27 am
Suggested by: Various

The re-balancing suggestion:
1. The precise change you wanna see done, including exact values and item/unit names etc.
This is more of a 2 parts suggestion, really.
1. Remove Behemoth's ability to capture spawn flags, which is the reason Behes do spawn at most flags, with no intention to do siege damage and with no buildings in sight.
2. Remove Behemoth's ability to defuse Demo Charges, the ease of which is why comms and players alike spawn Behes at subs, rendering demorunning totally useless.

2. What triggered it (what is the CAUSE that made you think of something to eliminate that cause)
While there's absolutely nothing wrong, IMHO, with using any unit defensively, behe's strength is abused hard nowadays. Instead of using his high Health and Damage to bash enemy buildings, Behes are used for Spawn Point camping. Given their ability to defuse Demo Charges and to capture Spawn flags, they have became the reason for many stand-offs and draws.

3. The predicted overall effect of your change (its PURPOSE).
Basically, Behes will become more like all the other siege units, in terms of usage. No siege unit except Behe can capture spawn flags or defuse demos atm. Behe spawning to protect flags and sublairs will still be possible, but not being able to actually re-capture the Flag or defuse the Demo will be a great deterrent, and players will start spawning proper melee units.

The impact on the game:
4. What will become harder to do, and for whom (units, teams etc).
It would certainly make it harder for Beasts to kill off Demorunners and Demo charges w/ the same carefree composure they do now. They would have to spawn units that are vulnerable, as opposed to Behes, and we might see demorunning make a comeback after all. Similarly with Flags.

5. What will become easier to accomplish, and by whom.
Humans would be given their chances back. Chances to capture flags now that even tho Behes spawn to abuse flagrunners, at least they wouldn't be able to go all the way and capture the flag too. Successful Demorunning could slowly be seen again, even though there are perfect Beast counters (which no1 uses atm), as in Snare + Blaze.

6. Will it make the game harder or easier for newbies (vs. veterans), and why.
Actually lazy veteran ab00zers use this a lot more often than newbies. Not to mention clanwars, where it would still be used for lair shielding.

The ripple effect
7. Subsequent changes needed to tone down (compensate for) the effects of this change.
Given that, as Shagroth said, Uttar was messing with the game balance w/o consulting w/ anyone, and Behes weren't even able to travel through Gates or capture Flags, initially, i'd say it's damage being repaired that doesn't need any compensation.

8. Other changes, which the current suggestion would benefit from or depends on (so it can work properly).
None.

____________________________________
Final notes.

This suggestion actually stemmed by a discussion in Clans Quorum, initiated by Dervun, and which triggered quite a debate. Other aspects were being considered, like making all siege units damage their own buildings, making behe wait 30 seconds before attacking or spawning 10 seconds after clicking the spawn button, rules for moving away from subs and so on.

Since those talks were intended for settling upon a change only in clanwars, but this is a problem in pubs as well, here it is for public scrutiny.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Hakugei on August 23, 2011, 08:52:01 am
Here's a thought - have demo charges explode when hit by a behe. :)


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Trigardon on August 23, 2011, 10:38:05 am
We had the 1st already, biggeruniverse implented this when he was part of the XR dev team back then. Why did you revert that anyways?


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Zaitev on August 23, 2011, 10:43:00 am
I'm all for this idea (removing both abilities). Arguments have all been mentioned in the first post.

This will have quite a big effect on clan wars because of the small number of players, so I suggest making it a variable in the admins.cfg so clans can agree on using it or not before they start the cw.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Hakugei on August 23, 2011, 10:49:59 am
It's unlikely that there will be a server cvar to toggle.
It's either or in such an important case.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Zaitev on August 23, 2011, 11:04:14 am
In that case, I say remove the Behemoth all together!

Then the two abilities should be removed IMO :). It's such a pain to kill one, kill two, get adrenaline, place the demo, get elec, kill three, kill four, get mag and then.. Someone spawns, takes two steps and disables it.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Daemon on August 23, 2011, 11:43:03 am
We had the 1st already, biggeruniverse implented this when he was part of the XR dev team back then. Why did you revert that anyways?

Because, not only that big did it without any sorts of community debate over this issue or any other re-balancing changes,  but he didn't even confer with any other admin. I had no idea that he even did this, tbh, and who knows what else he sneakily changed on a whim, w/o ppl knowing.

It's not like a community driven project can be made w/o the community. Nor that any single person is warranted enough to make balance changes on its own free will and subjective judgment.

And third of all, when big left, nothing was working and we had to revert everything to a revision like an year older, in order to make sure work can be done on a functional game, even though an older instance.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Zackorrigan on August 23, 2011, 11:47:55 am
I like the idea thT the behe can't defuse demo, but i dont't like that they can't hit flag. My point of view
1. If behe can't defuse demo, you can just place demo near your flag,  so behe can't hit the flag whitout take damagr
2. Humans can eject from siege to capture  flag. So let 1 beast siege unit who can do it too.



Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: H3027 on August 23, 2011, 11:50:49 am
Behe faggotry is crucial in clan wars and has often lead to draws or undeserved Beast win.
Your suggestion is certainly a step into the right direction.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Daemon on August 23, 2011, 12:02:50 pm
I like the idea thT the behe can't defuse demo, but i dont't like that they can't hit flag. My point of view
1. If behe can't defuse demo, you can just place demo near your flag,  so behe can't hit the flag whitout take damagr
2. Humans can eject from siege to capture  flag. So let 1 beast siege unit who can do it too.

A Nomad is not a siege unit. A Nomad is a Nomad. A Nomad that bailed from a Balli or Cata is not even a normal Nomad. It's a useless Nomad. Certainly not a siege unit.

A. Behe spawning at flag and recapturing it along with killing every human there happens: ALL THE TIME!
B. Humans spawning cata or balli just to bail and be left with a naked nomad to get flag happens: NEVER?

So why would we allow A, a frequent occurrence, to keep on messing games, just because B might happen once in a million years?


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: biggeruniverse on August 23, 2011, 12:05:13 pm
We had the 1st already, biggeruniverse implented this when he was part of the XR dev team back then. Why did you revert that anyways?

Because, not only that big did it without any sorts of community debate over this issue or any other re-balancing changes,  but he didn't even confer with any other admin. I had no idea that he even did this, tbh, and who knows what else he sneakily changed on a whim, w/o ppl knowing.

Sorry dude, but I'm going to have to call you out on that.

(http://www.newerth.com/big/ss.jpg)


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Trigardon on August 23, 2011, 12:25:07 pm
We had the 1st already, biggeruniverse implented this when he was part of the XR dev team back then. Why did you revert that anyways?

Because, not only that big did it without any sorts of community debate over this issue or any other re-balancing changes,  but he didn't even confer with any other admin. I had no idea that he even did this, tbh, and who knows what else he sneakily changed on a whim, w/o ppl knowing.

It's not like a community driven project can be made w/o the community. Nor that any single person is warranted enough to make balance changes on its own free will and subjective judgment.

And third of all, when big left, nothing was working and we had to revert everything to a revision like an year older, in order to make sure work can be done on a functional game, even though an older instance.

The change was before this whole forum was created? (Re-balancing suggestions)
I woner if your latest addition (helmet stuffs) was made with the communities approvement? :-P


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Hakugei on August 23, 2011, 12:28:16 pm
I do believe it was. :p
It was discussed somewhere, go find it!


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Trigardon on August 23, 2011, 12:31:42 pm
Do I really need to post more examples?

Was the add of python discussed publicly?
What about gamescripts, triggers and physics? I can't remember having a thread where you asked for it.

Or what about the squads?


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Daemon on August 23, 2011, 12:34:27 pm
I woner if your latest addition (helmet stuffs) was made with the communities approvement? :-P

It's just eye candy. You can turn them off at anytime. And they don't affect how Behes are able to capture flags or not, or w/e other else you may think about. Melee ranges remain the same, as with everything else.

We had the 1st already, biggeruniverse implented this when he was part of the XR dev team back then. Why did you revert that anyways?

Because, not only that big did it without any sorts of community debate over this issue or any other re-balancing changes,  but he didn't even confer with any other admin. I had no idea that he even did this, tbh, and who knows what else he sneakily changed on a whim, w/o ppl knowing.

Sorry dude, but I'm going to have to call you out on that.

And what exactly is it that i got wrong? If anything, it proves my point 100%. Mohi dug up accidentally undocumented balance changes that you've made and reported them to the rest of us. I even admitted that your chages may be "right", just like any other change anyone could ever think about. This doesn't mean they should be implemented w/o a 2nd opinion... and a 3rd... and a 4th... and a 20th.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Daemon on August 23, 2011, 12:38:09 pm
Do I really need to post more examples?

Was the add of python discussed publicly?
What about gamescripts, triggers and physics? I can't remember having a thread where you asked for it.

Or what about the squads?

How much does Biggeruniverse pays for his hired mouths? Does that include a bonus for making a fool of yourself? All those you've mentioned are silverback features, not balance changes. If you don't want to use them, fine, they won't affect the game. They only OPEN THE DOORS FOR EASIER AND MORE EFFECTIVE SERVER MODDING.

Now stop making a fool of yourself, Trigardon.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: biggeruniverse on August 23, 2011, 12:39:12 pm
I woner if your latest addition (helmet stuffs) was made with the communities approvement? :-P

It's just eye candy. You can turn them off at anytime. And they don't affect how Behes are able to capture flags or not, or w/e other else you may think about. Melee ranges remain the same, as with everything else.

We had the 1st already, biggeruniverse implented this when he was part of the XR dev team back then. Why did you revert that anyways?

Because, not only that big did it without any sorts of community debate over this issue or any other re-balancing changes,  but he didn't even confer with any other admin. I had no idea that he even did this, tbh, and who knows what else he sneakily changed on a whim, w/o ppl knowing.

Sorry dude, but I'm going to have to call you out on that.

And what exactly is it that i got wrong? If anything, it proves my point 100%. Mohi dug up accidentally undocumented balance changes that you've made and reported them to the rest of us. I even admitted that your chages may be "right", just like any other change anyone could ever think about. This doesn't mean they should be implemented w/o a 2nd opinion... and a 3rd... and a 4th... and a 20th.

You actually did know, and without any reference to prior work, you are claiming this suggestion was your own idea.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: biggeruniverse on August 23, 2011, 12:40:39 pm
Do I really need to post more examples?

Was the add of python discussed publicly?
What about gamescripts, triggers and physics? I can't remember having a thread where you asked for it.

Or what about the squads?

How much does Biggeruniverse pays for his hired mouths? Does that include a bonus for making a fool of yourself? All those you've mentioned are silverback features, not balance changes. If you don't want to use them, fine, they won't affect the game. They only OPEN THE DOORS FOR EASIER AND MORE EFFECTIVE SERVER MODDING.

Now stop making a fool of yourself, Trigardon.

What about the mech?


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Hakugei on August 23, 2011, 12:43:55 pm
Was the add of python discussed publicly?
What about gamescripts, triggers and physics? I can't remember having a thread where you asked for it.
Those do not affect Savage nor its gameplay. It grants modders, mappers and server admins more options - but they don't have to be used.

Or what about the squads?
I wasn't part of the team that far back, so I can't tell you.
However, what improvements and changes could/should be made to the squad system to make it more useful and practical were actually discussed by the community. :p


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Daemon on August 23, 2011, 12:45:12 pm
Do I really need to post more examples?

Was the add of python discussed publicly?
What about gamescripts, triggers and physics? I can't remember having a thread where you asked for it.

Or what about the squads?

How much does Biggeruniverse pays for his hired mouths? Does that include a bonus for making a fool of yourself? All those you've mentioned are silverback features, not balance changes. If you don't want to use them, fine, they won't affect the game. They only OPEN THE DOORS FOR EASIER AND MORE EFFECTIVE SERVER MODDING.

Now stop making a fool of yourself, Trigardon.

What about the mech?

Could you show me a single server that has the mech? Even one whose owner i've forced into using.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: biggeruniverse on August 23, 2011, 12:52:13 pm
Do I really need to post more examples?

Was the add of python discussed publicly?
What about gamescripts, triggers and physics? I can't remember having a thread where you asked for it.

Or what about the squads?

How much does Biggeruniverse pays for his hired mouths? Does that include a bonus for making a fool of yourself? All those you've mentioned are silverback features, not balance changes. If you don't want to use them, fine, they won't affect the game. They only OPEN THE DOORS FOR EASIER AND MORE EFFECTIVE SERVER MODDING.

Now stop making a fool of yourself, Trigardon.

What about the mech?

Could you show me a single server that has the mech? Even one whose owner i've forced into using.

Then what did you go to all the trouble for? Is it not planned to be part of XR 1.0? And before you talk any more about "community driven" may I reference this thread (http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,12578.0.html), where you unilaterally shoot down requests without reference to the community.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Trigardon on August 23, 2011, 12:53:24 pm
They ALL affect the gameplay, you obviously haven't tested it enough? For my part, I have.

Daemon, *clap* *clap* *clap*


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Robbo on August 23, 2011, 12:57:23 pm
I wasn't aware the community was full of game designers. Guess they better pass all decisions made.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Hakugei on August 23, 2011, 12:57:36 pm
How so? :)
It doesn't change Savage and modders, mappers and server admins have always had the option (and made use of it) to customize their server however they please.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Daemon on August 23, 2011, 01:02:53 pm
Do I really need to post more examples?

Was the add of python discussed publicly?
What about gamescripts, triggers and physics? I can't remember having a thread where you asked for it.

Or what about the squads?

How much does Biggeruniverse pays for his hired mouths? Does that include a bonus for making a fool of yourself? All those you've mentioned are silverback features, not balance changes. If you don't want to use them, fine, they won't affect the game. They only OPEN THE DOORS FOR EASIER AND MORE EFFECTIVE SERVER MODDING.

Now stop making a fool of yourself, Trigardon.

What about the mech?

Could you show me a single server that has the mech? Even one whose owner i've forced into using.

Then what did you go to all the trouble for? Is it not planned to be part of XR 1.0? And before you talk any more about "community driven" may I reference this thread (http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,12578.0.html), where you unilaterally shoot down requests without reference to the community.

Back to the drawing board suggest to me, a non-native English speaker, that it is not rejected, but sent back for improvement. They're not deleted or censored, just re-cycled because of obvious flaws.

Oh and you might have missed this: a new feature has been added since a while back, and it's fully functional. The "/callvote mod" vote now allows loading mods on the fly, using the current map. All the balance changes, after being debated and their merit discussed  by a group of admins, based on arguments brought forth inhere, are implemented in a so-called "mod". That mod can be loaded anytime, changes experienced and discussions continued with proper proof, before being added to mainstream XR server.

As for this being "my idea", it's not. I just put together the suggestion, i've already said.

Quote from: Daemon
This suggestion actually stemmed by a discussion in Clans Quorum, initiated by Dervun, and which triggered quite a debate. Other aspects were being considered, like making all siege units damage their own buildings, making behe wait 30 seconds before attacking or spawning 10 seconds after clicking the spawn button, rules for moving away from subs and so on.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: biggeruniverse on August 23, 2011, 01:12:48 pm
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/01/18/MN73840.DTL (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/01/18/MN73840.DTL)


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Daemon on August 23, 2011, 01:24:08 pm
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/01/18/MN73840.DTL (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/01/18/MN73840.DTL)

Thanks, i was looking for this one myself!

Dunning, a professor of psychology at Cornell, worries about this because, according to his research, most incompetent people do not know that they are incompetent.

On the contrary. People who do things badly, Dunning has found in studies conducted with a graduate student, Justin Kruger, are usually supremely confident of their abilities -- more confident, in fact, than people who do things well.

"I began to think that there were probably lots of things that I was bad at, and I didn't know it, Dunning said.


This is the reason YOU, or ANY OTHER SINGULAR INDIVIDUAL, especially the ones that THINK THEY KNOW WHAT MUST BE DONE, be allowed to do it ON THEIR OWN. As for myself, even though i admit i believe i am well suited for making this kind of calls, i am keeping myself away from actually being tempted to do it. It's not a crime to be wrong, but it is one to think you can't be. As you do.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Robbo on August 23, 2011, 01:29:44 pm
Firstly don't use yellow. You might think it is correct to use yellow but it isn't (refer to article).

Secondly, you will realize just how wrong you are about your claims about yourself and other when SR is released.

Go make another helmet or something. Then look at a helmet someone made who is good at what they do. Then refer to article again.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Daemon on August 23, 2011, 01:48:11 pm
I don't pretend to be a good modeler, computer game designer, scripter, 2D artist or whatnot. Did i claim otherwise?

But i am a reasonably hard working idiot who is willing to put in his own time helping with whatever he is able to, so that others enjoy this game even a little bit more. Don't i wish i could do better, more, faster? I do.

Go make another helmet or something. Then look at a helmet someone made who is good at what they do. Then refer to article again.

Well, unlike SR devs, we don't have the privilege of spying on the "other" project private forums. We might learn a thing or 2 as well. But hey, it never hurts to play a little dirty, does it?

Anyway, why are SR devs pestering XR balance suggestions thread with unrelated, vengeful and repeatedly proved wrong, spam? If SR is so fine, why are you bugging us over here?

________
However i think i am a pretty good boardgame designer :D.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: biggeruniverse on August 23, 2011, 02:19:27 pm
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll181/SapphireWitche/drama-llama.jpg)


We keep a herd of the finest drama llamas. We're a top-tier breeder!


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: DarkStar on August 23, 2011, 02:20:54 pm
behe can't defuse demo charge? sigh lol, any more changes to ruin the beast late game? :P


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Trigardon on August 23, 2011, 02:26:52 pm
I don't pretend to be a good modeler, computer game designer, scripter, 2D artist or whatnot. Did i claim otherwise?

But i am a reasonably hard working idiot who is willing to put in his own time helping with whatever he is able to, so that others enjoy this game even a little bit more. Don't i wish i could do better, more, faster? I do.

Go make another helmet or something. Then look at a helmet someone made who is good at what they do. Then refer to article again.

Well, unlike SR devs, we don't have the privilege of spying on the "other" project private forums. We might learn a thing or 2 as well. But hey, it never hurts to play a little dirty, does it?

Anyway, why are SR devs pestering XR balance suggestions thread with unrelated, vengeful and repeatedly proved wrong, spam? If SR is so fine, why are you bugging us over here?

________
However i think i am a pretty good boardgame designer :D.


You can't spy anything interesting out of your private forums anyways. Your admin section is quite dead too I herd?

And you already suck at designing helmets, why now ruin the world of board games?


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Helios on August 23, 2011, 04:01:17 pm
I'm ok with this, as long the human siege eject invulnerability is removed/reverted.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Faun on August 23, 2011, 04:04:40 pm
This way of bickering makes you look like 14 year olds, bitching after a long day in school.

a bit ot, still the ppz addressed by these words seem to observe this here.

Common sense tells that people who improve a game in their spare time will have totally different backgrounds and ways to get things done. A total lack of respect for each other will on the other hand make sure that things get hardly finished at all. Id say you better grab the things that connect you and bring these on, than to seize up on the things you dont like on other peoples way.

In my opinion none of the two projects current intention is to translate the game into nowadays standard, while keeping the spirit and feel of TBFN. Every project tries to "add" and "improve" things, which in both games will be gamechanging and being a loss of things that are fun now. Its the existing game I love a lot, for me the ideal way would be to bring the graphics into a more attractive state, add a lot of objects with as little loss of atmosphere as possible; and to fix those nasty bugs like surfs, hitting through and stuff like this, while keeping it as pure as possible. Only when this is achieved, with the game attracting more players tho its nice looks, good functionability and community heritage (which is a very nice and impressive thing) there is space for modifications and changes, all on their own, then populated servers. If I get it right, that was what SFE was doing back then. I never played EX2, still I recognized it added stuff; maybe its this apperently history that influences the decision of both dev teams that they have to add a lot of new stuff and mechanics to be as innovative as possible. I am getting unhappy about the directions BOTH projects go, it seems more and more like mods, scripting and rebalances are eclipsing the current game. I respect that everyone got his own approach to savage, so do you, so do I. Everyone has other wishes for it, other dreams.

So we got my decreasing motivation founded in the reasons above, and we got bitchfights between two concurring community devteams on the other. Considered that my role in both projects can only be to make/polish maps, I ask to remove any dev attribute from my forum accounts here and there - I will provide maps for both projects anyway if I feel like, but I hate to stand amongst people that spat while I am feeling quite ok with them all.

I really appreciate the work you guys do, trying to get a future for savage - each team in their own ways. Im now going back to see this as a player with a lot of interest whats going on with this game, sometimes Ill try to throw out a map and see if ppz like it, but I cant identify anymore with scenes like this one, nor do I feel a real chance or audience to help you to find a way that would be decent, because you all like to add such an amount of fancy stuff instead of getting a smooth, beautiful savage asap. Not that I never wanted to add fancy stuff (Think Im master in having fancy ideas for savage), but as I already stated this should be kept in mods and not tearing the game apart.

One last word:  Plz also keep in mind how much fun you had when you started savage and what the things were that impressed you instead of only letting the vet in you decide "whats good for savage".

Good luck, may the grimms bless you


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Feathers on August 23, 2011, 04:08:01 pm
I'm ok with this, as long the human siege eject invulnerability is removed/reverted.

http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,12519.15.html


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Daemon on August 23, 2011, 04:14:38 pm
@Helios: what exactly is the siege eject invulnerability if you don't mind my ignorance? The short time between pressing X and spawning as a living nomad?

and we got bitchfights between two concurring community devteams on the other.

That's a nice way to put it. The correct way would be that no XR dev is causing any grievance in SR forums, no XR dev is bitching about w/e features and changes exist in SR, and certainly, no XR dev has plagued constructive threads as this one here, as far as SR is concerned. One has to make a stand, though, when lies and insults are proliferated by a group of people that go on causing dissent at every turn. HERE.



Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Zackorrigan on August 23, 2011, 05:34:14 pm
I like the idea thT the behe can't defuse demo, but i dont't like that they can't hit flag. My point of view
1. If behe can't defuse demo, you can just place demo near your flag,  so behe can't hit the flag whitout take damagr
2. Humans can eject from siege to capture  flag. So let 1 beast siege unit who can do it too.

A Nomad is not a siege unit. A Nomad is a Nomad. A Nomad that bailed from a Balli or Cata is not even a normal Nomad. It's a useless Nomad. Certainly not a siege unit.

A. Behe spawning at flag and recapturing it along with killing every human there happens: ALL THE TIME!
B. Humans spawning cata or balli just to bail and be left with a naked nomad to get flag happens: NEVER?

So why would we allow A, a frequent occurrence, to keep on messing games, just because B might happen once in a million years?

B i see many times a beast who sneake and capture flag after a bali spawn, the pred take flag, the bali kill the pred, eject and take flag.Or you can do the same with cata and behemoth. But not the summ, and you wanna disalbe this abilities to behemot.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Hakugei on August 23, 2011, 05:49:01 pm
Ballistas and catapults don't capture flags.
Both of them can eject to nomads, however.
Behe "can" capture flag, but summoner can't.

So any comparison hoping to make both sides even is faulty as they're not designed to be alike anyway. :)


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: H3027 on August 23, 2011, 05:52:05 pm
Beasts have speed advantage. It's absolutely no problem for them to keep flags captured anyway.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: biggeruniverse on August 23, 2011, 05:53:11 pm
So we got my decreasing motivation founded in the reasons above, and we got bitchfights between two concurring community devteams on the other.


For you Faun, an apology is in order. I know you work mostly independently of the politics and jockeying of the various mods, for the good of Savage as a whole.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Helios on August 23, 2011, 06:01:15 pm
@Helios: what exactly is the siege eject invulnerability if you don't mind my ignorance? The short time between pressing X and spawning as a living nomad?

Yep exactly that, it was changed in XR.  It lasts long enough to negate a behe hit and gives the nomad a better chance to recapture the flag.  

If behes can't capture flags, I see no reason to have it anymore.  The only other thing it's used for is to enhance stat-whoring.  Even without it, human siege units will still be more capable of recapturing flags than beast siege units.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Hakugei on August 23, 2011, 06:05:22 pm
The question that arises is, why was the invulnerability increased?

I'd suggest discussing it in its own thread (once it is created), as the suggestion was already posted recently.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Helios on August 23, 2011, 06:08:09 pm
Just replying to his question m8.  :-)


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Mr Brightside on August 23, 2011, 09:08:07 pm
For what it's worth, I think that stopping behes capturing flags & disabling demos is a great idea - the original post said it all  :mrgreen:


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Daemon on August 24, 2011, 09:02:04 am
@Helios: what exactly is the siege eject invulnerability if you don't mind my ignorance? The short time between pressing X and spawning as a living nomad?

Yep exactly that, it was changed in XR.  It lasts long enough to negate a behe hit and gives the nomad a better chance to recapture the flag.  

If behes can't capture flags, I see no reason to have it anymore.  The only other thing it's used for is to enhance stat-whoring.  Even without it, human siege units will still be more capable of recapturing flags than beast siege units.

Seems like a fair trade-off. I don't really know exactly how it would be done - spawning offers a a short moment of invulnerability, wherever it happens. Maybe create a new function for leaving vehicles.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Helios on August 24, 2011, 05:21:27 pm
@Helios: what exactly is the siege eject invulnerability if you don't mind my ignorance? The short time between pressing X and spawning as a living nomad?

Yep exactly that, it was changed in XR.  It lasts long enough to negate a behe hit and gives the nomad a better chance to recapture the flag.  

If behes can't capture flags, I see no reason to have it anymore.  The only other thing it's used for is to enhance stat-whoring.  Even without it, human siege units will still be more capable of recapturing flags than beast siege units.

Seems like a fair trade-off. I don't really know exactly how it would be done - spawning offers a a short moment of invulnerability, wherever it happens. Maybe create a new function for leaving vehicles.

Sounds good, hopefully it can be done.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: lololol on August 24, 2011, 07:43:39 pm
I always thought that peoples don't like behemoths because they kill with one hit without skills, but it is nearly impossible to kill them in at close combat, even skills are useless....so this is some kind of "unfair" for some noobs...

Now I would like to ask, how this lame suggestion will fix this "unfair" situation?
or you just hate behes and want to make them completely useless? (it is already outlaw killing by behes, you will get slayed if you kill few ppls in arrow), so lets take out ability to capture flag and destroy demos and noone will never use them and you will be happy!
maybe more simple to delete this unit?

p.s. most lame suggestion i ever seen...


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Daemon on August 24, 2011, 08:20:00 pm
Actually what's lame is Behelaming that ruins most cws. :)


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: lololol on August 24, 2011, 09:11:14 pm
Actually what's lame is Behelaming that ruins most cws. :)
maybe behes need some changes, but in some different way :) , some re-balancing which directly solve behe unattractive behaviors:)


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Trigardon on August 24, 2011, 09:15:47 pm
Most CWs are ruined due to already uberstacked "pro" clans.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Daemon on August 24, 2011, 09:18:06 pm
Actually what's lame is Behelaming that ruins most cws. :)
maybe behes need some changes, but in some different way :) , some re-balancing which directly solve behe unattractive behaviors:)

What's stopping you to make a suggestion of your own? Are you the type that impeaches instead of electing?

*Hint: i counted wrong, S19 is available!


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Helios on August 24, 2011, 09:52:55 pm
Most CWs are ruined due to already uberstacked "pro" clans.

A discussion better left for another thread, but:

That's the nature of competition, you play for fun and to win.  None of those clans started out as "uberstacked pro clans" or did so purely through recruitment.  Recruit reliable people, build clan synergy, practice and get better.  I guess that's harder to do than whining though.

On-topic:

I agree with Daemon, you shouldn't have to rely on behemoths in a clan war of all places.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: lololol on August 24, 2011, 10:21:48 pm
Actually what's lame is Behelaming that ruins most cws. :)
maybe behes need some changes, but in some different way :) , some re-balancing which directly solve behe unattractive behaviors:)
What's stopping you to make a suggestion of your own? Are you the type that impeaches instead of electing?
I posted few my own suggestions noone stopped me :)
about behes suggestion- I am ok with current behes, and not want any(except some really wise) changes for behes.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: H3027 on August 24, 2011, 11:10:03 pm
The claim that behe would be useless is hillarious. Behes are already used at least 5 times more than catas in clanwars - and that mainly for lame defensive purposes. (Yes, I'm not talking about uncommon, smart usage of Behe like tanking siege shots or covering summoners/distracting fire while approaching the base). And that although the race with speed advantage almost entirely relies on offence and shouldn't need that overkill defence at all. In fact, Beasts being unable to keep up their pressure deserve to loose - and players being so uninspired that they find no other methods to defend against demo runners except with behe spawning deserve to loose anyway. Yes, there are enough effective ways to hold off demo runners or defending flags.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Django on August 25, 2011, 01:48:13 am
I couldn't disagree with Tirza more. I also think you're heavily biased towards nerfing beast in general.

The question should then be what is the role of siege in Savage if not to hold a location in one way or another?

IMO, if behe's are prevented from spawning and defending spawn locations then its only fair that human buffs should be nerfed and bali's should not 1 shot kill (none of which would make savage any more fun), etc.

From my experience people that complain about behe camping are generally excessive users of buffing to take spawn locations. Here's a radical idea for people that don't like to be killed by behe's at spawn locations: take pulse and relocate more often.

TBH I wish people would stop whining and deal with bad luck or play another game like savage 2 where siege is useless and stop with the care bear BS but that's not going to happen any time soon...

(http://www.dragoart.com/tuts/pics/8/1449/how-to-draw-a-care-bear,-tenderheart-bear.jpg) (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Care%20Bear)


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Zackorrigan on August 25, 2011, 07:50:57 am
Players complain that they can't do demorun because behe kill demo but they take reloc in inventory and not immobs and on pub many demorunner run alone and some demorunners just want use elec and mag for do 4-5 easy kills


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Daemon on August 25, 2011, 08:28:00 am
@DJ: But behes can still kill any human around spawn flags! They would just need a scav, or something, to get the flag back after they've cleared out the area.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: H3027 on August 25, 2011, 12:02:59 pm
I couldn't disagree with Tirza more. I also think you're heavily biased towards nerfing beast in general.

The question should then be what is the role of siege in Savage if not to hold a location in one way or another?

IMO, if behe's are prevented from spawning and defending spawn locations then its only fair that human buffs should be nerfed and bali's should not 1 shot kill (none of which would make savage any more fun), etc.

Once again: I aim to balance game situations, not races. The good racial balance as a result of it is shown and doesn't have to be talked about in the first place except for the populistic whining.

Siege is supposed to encounter heavily defended/hard to destroy locations. The main purpose is offense. Is a catapult any good at holding a location? Or a summoner? Not really, there are better alternatives. Not even a ballista which is very easy killable by ranged weapons while there's of course a certain risk of getting killed when using melee. The Behemoth is the only siege unit when used defensively that is worth being called "good at holding locations".

And no, Daemons suggestion doesn't prevent Behes from defending spawn locations. All you need is 1% teamwork now, i.e. someone spawning with a non-siege unit in order to get the job done.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Hakugei on August 25, 2011, 12:05:07 pm
Turn on friendly fire for sieges.  :-D
(And of course, once someone kills too many allies, he's banned from using siege again. :p)

Oh the chaos...


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Helios on August 25, 2011, 02:29:35 pm
Is a catapult any good at holding a location? Or a summoner? Not really, there are better alternatives.

Well catas are good for taking out summoners trying to hit the shield, and ballistas are good for taking out tower saccers (talking about pubs).  But yeah, not quite in the same sense.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: lololol on August 25, 2011, 09:40:53 pm
Turn on friendly fire for sieges.  :-D

+1000 it is the BEST solution almost for all re-balancing suggestions:)


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Helios on August 26, 2011, 08:15:08 am
Out of curiosity, on what maps have behes been the most troublesome in clanwars recently?


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: WarDragonZ on August 26, 2011, 08:18:02 am
DJ ftw


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Hakugei on August 26, 2011, 08:23:19 am
Pretty much all, Helios. :p


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Helios on August 26, 2011, 09:18:53 am
Pretty much all, Helios. :p

Hmm, was just wondering if it had anything do w/ the higher gold maps that have become more of a staple for competition since the inception of the NSL.  Cause they would definitely accentuate it, and increase beast's strength in general.

Guess not though.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Renegade on September 01, 2011, 03:28:29 pm
(didn't read whole thread)

I think it'd be healthier if you could make behes defuse demo-pack with 2-3 hits instead impossible.
nice day


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Hakugei on September 01, 2011, 05:05:43 pm
(didn't read whole thread)

I think it'd be healthier if you could make behes defuse demo-pack with 2-3 hits instead impossible.
nice day

Then you might as well spawn a scavenger that has the same amount of required hits but a lot quicker. :p


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Renegade on September 01, 2011, 06:30:16 pm
(didn't read whole thread)

I think it'd be healthier if you could make behes defuse demo-pack with 2-3 hits instead impossible.
nice day

Then you might as well spawn a scavenger that has the same amount of required hits but a lot quicker. :p

That's right, but still letting behes damage demo-packs would give them a chance to survive against packs and balance the camping problem as one behe approximately wastes its 6 seconds on a pack.

Since behemoths do not ALWAYS face packs near their sub-lair or lair but at the end of gateways, and some grimmwalls. It'd be nicer i think


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Scipio on October 03, 2011, 07:34:36 am
Read the thread and didn't see this suggestion, but what if Behemoths were not able to re-enter Sub-lairs after spawning? Maybe that would be too extreme? It wouldn't stop spawn camping, but it would force the Behemoth to go on the offense(drawing fire to protect summoners, shamans and advancing predators) which is, I think, a much more interesting in-game situation than having behes pop-up and disappear immediately.

As for the flag situation, I really don't have much of an opinion on that, It can be lame when a behemoth or two show up around a flag, but smart human players can often get around them and recapture the flag, which at the very least, buys time.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: kingwesley(WILLY) on October 06, 2011, 06:59:16 pm
Behes are gays :(


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Oberlus on December 20, 2011, 05:42:58 pm

Hi! My first post, don't kill me, I'm noob.

Turn on friendly fire for sieges.  :-D
(And of course, once someone kills too many allies, he's banned from using siege again. :p)

Oh the chaos...
Yes!  :mrgreen:

I like that suggestion, as a noob that's been kick-voted several times for being behespawner.


(Yes, I'm not talking about uncommon, smart usage of Behe like tanking siege shots or covering summoners/distracting fire while approaching the base).
Hey! I do that! I didn't know that that's considered smart  :roll:



Demo-runners, particularly legos with mag buff and med-packs, once they have planted the demo, are harder to kill than beast saccers; am I right? (maybe it is known that a good beast player is unstoppable thanks to the leap no matter the skills and strategy of the human team, but I'm noob).
The behemoth spawning or camping around a sub and getting rid of the hard-working demo-runner's hopes is a problem, even I catch a brief of that. But I think the original suggestion on this thread is a bit excesive, as many others have already stated. Behespawners can't really stop a demo-ŕunner from destroying buildings not close to spawning points, and behecampers can be there before the demo-runner comes, but then he can choose to plant in a building far from the really slo behe.
Catas and ballis are used to stop attacking behes (and they are rather good at it), they just have to be at some distance from the spawning point. But beasts don't have the same power to stop ranged siege attacks. Summoners are good against them, ok, but they need several shots to stop a cata, even a balli, and the balli can respond meanwhile or keep inflicting severe damage to the beast base. The behe can do nothing but moonwalking (not for real succes, just for everybody's fun) through any kind of ranged shot while approaching the human base.

So, after this noob review, I would say it is ok that behes can be the only siege unit good at holding possitions (even spawnflags), they can be killed from distance, and there are other assimetries in Savage (all of them for good).
I think that just not allowing the behes to spawn in a sub just to stop a demo-runner the game balance is pretty good (do not forget I'm a noob, don't get offended if I say something too stupid).

But anyways I would like to see Hakugei's suggestion of siege friend fire on. I'm sick of being called a behespawner when I was waiting to spawn as a behe in the sub nearest to the enemy (to attack, yes), and then a demo-runner comes and plant, re-spawning time finishes, I spawn and hit the demo, and ppl gets crazy. Wtf, should I just walk of or reenter to get an ok-legalistic-whinner-take-your-blaze-predator-or-whatever-you-with-your-mag-shield-can-ignore?
So I think that tuning on the siege friend fire would be awesome. Nobody would try to shot catas in between their own buildings to stop saccers or behes, nor behes would try to defuse demos hitting their own buildings.

Anyways, and a bit off-topic (of the suggestion, not the threads comments) nobody should complain about being killed by a behe in the field (behespawners aside). Hey, I'm huge and noisy (can't hide) and slow as a cow (you can run away), why did you come at close range? Don't worry, I'll fix that... BLAAM.


Anyways...

I love savage! Thank you so much! Developers, refereers, players, supporters, noobs... all of you. Even Devil, that kick-voted me twice in a minute row the other day for behespawning and behecamping (with the same behe) :wink:


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Renegade on December 20, 2011, 08:53:51 pm
welcome abourd oberlus and thanks for the constructive feedback :)
The point is it's not behemoths that's imbalanced it's the wicked maps that make behemoths unstoppable such as mistwall entrances (In your post you clearly mentioned only way to kill behemoth is taking it down with range weapon at least you have to take it's %97 hp off to melee it, but that's not the point) and you know mistwalls do not let range shots go thru. Such as tight entrances or rather small areas for spawn points (like a flag on top of tower)

When there're behes on such locations under those circumstances it's nearly impossible for human team to proceed game or push further. but i admit behe is one of the best asymmetry in this game and i repeat it's the "map's fault" :)

and show me the nubs that kicked you! i'm looking forward to slap them in their faces!


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Oberlus on December 21, 2011, 10:04:04 am
 :-)

Rene, the first one that talk to me in-game and now too in the forum. Cool guy!  :mrgreen:


Yes, I don't like mistwalls.
I think I agree with that adjusting the maps could be also a solution. But I still think siege friend fire on would be great, stopping any imbalance and abuse of siege unit for defending purposes. For example, no beasts could spawn in a flag that is being actively defended by a behe (it would be a lottery), so human can hope to kill it and recover the spawnflag with little opposition if beast team don't realize they need more melee units and team work.

Talking about wicked maps, yesterday I played one with a C-shapped hill protecting each SH/lair, and one of the C ends is a soft slope that even an mudent or a cata can climb (and use to sniper workers or jump over close buildings). I find it rather incoherent and troublemaker to have such things if they should not be allowed. Troublemaker!
I think it would be coherent and playable to have such maps as is and allow the hillwalking, given that human (and beasts) could block the ramp, and it would also be coherent (but not so diverse) to not have accesible hills if it is forbidden to climb them.

Off-topic: I've been kicked "only" twice, and it was 'cause I hit the F1 (I agreed I did wrong, behespawning to defend a sub, deserved those kicks). The problem for me is not being kicked but being an offender player. I don't like to ruin other's fun or let them think I did if it's not true. A different thing is when they are gosu whiners, I can ignore them.
PS: and I've been impeached twice, in games I started being alone to practice base building. Such lame jerks could have used "elect" themselves and I would have vote for them  :x



Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Renegade on December 21, 2011, 12:13:55 pm
For example, no beasts could spawn in a flag that is being actively defended by a behe (it would be a lottery), so human can hope to kill it and recover the spawnflag with little opposition if beast team don't realize they need more melee units and team work.

now that's a nice idea and i like it  :mrgreen:


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: COJ-Suoma on December 21, 2011, 03:56:10 pm
For example, no beasts could spawn in a flag that is being actively defended by a behe (it would be a lottery), so human can hope to kill it and recover the spawnflag with little opposition if beast team don't realize they need more melee units and team work.

If one noob behe would spawn without any idea what to do, the whole team would be unable to defend thus losing the flag.

Ps. Oberlus, I tried speaking to you in game yesterday but you didn't seem to respond at all :(


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Oberlus on December 22, 2011, 03:47:19 pm
Oh, that's true, noobs and trolls could wreack havoc among their own mates, and that would be even more irritating and party pooper than the current behespawning. The solution would be the same as now (kickvoting him), and maybe the problems would be even more. But it would be undeniable that this problems would be more or less the same for both races, thus getting rid of the balancing problem, "behe can melee,hold positions and capture spawnflags but catas can't and that's unfair fpor hummies".
Don't forget that that's an alternative change to that of Daemon's S20, suggested in this thread by Hakugei.

Anyways (unfortunatelly with more changes to the system), comms could have the power to allow or deny siege spawning for individual players, thus stopping behetrollers soon. Moreover, that would give the comm some control to avoid the overpopulation of any siege unit if he wants.
Or there could be an in-game automatic rule for banning siegespawning to players that killed too many team mates (this is also Hakugei's I think). This would need thorough consideration: how many team-kills? absolute value or percentage? would the enemy-kills be a mitigating factor? (like "2 frags validates 1 team-kill", you know, sometimes some innocents have to die for fair cause) the siege-ban would last how much time or spawnings?).
All this could be turn on or off by the server admins, I guess.



PS: I'm so noob that I can't read and get my "reaper's best buddy" at the same time  :-o. Many times someone came, said me hi, plays a substantial time and disconects without me noticing (and I feel bad for that). And sometimes I'm AFK for hours and forget to change nick...
Sorry for not answering you, COJ-Suoma. I'll find out who are you in game to give you a proper, real-time apology  :-)



Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: DarknesS on December 23, 2011, 11:01:14 am
Actually what's lame is Behelaming that ruins most cws. :)

Behes are the most effective way to stop demo runners in clanwars. They are strategically extremly valuable for defense.
How else would you stop 1 mag buffed legio, how would you stop 2 mag buffed legios and 1 elec buffed? You'd require the whole team to prevent their demos from going up (thus whole team has to camp). OR you make the wise choice and use a single behe and maybe 1 shaman to defend.
Since beast have no sensors beast comms would probably use a much more defensive strategy once both teams are level 3 (whole team camping, and scouting, defensive sub spamming, no offense at all - unless enemy is inferior).

Behes can also be used to stall enemies from approaching a sub (e.g. you order your whole team to attack at one point while putting 1 behe at a chokepoint blocking 3 or 4 humans going for a sub).

Full teched humans are superior to beast in almost every way, except for the defense ability of behe. Also humans have the ability to gold starve beast (a behe is a whooping 7500 gold).

If you want to nerf behe maybe change the time after he can re-enter sub, or make only refund the player 6500 gold when he changes the unit after spanwing a behe. But don't make the unit utterly useless without even thinking about how much this will hamper beast offense during full tech game.


I understand nerfing behes in public, but without them beast are extremly inferior in CWs.



Maybe if you stopped playing shit maps with monkit spam on overcrowded servers you'd whine less about behe camping in pub, too.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: Hakugei on December 23, 2011, 11:04:36 am
Frankly, if a clan needs behemoths to survive at a CW, they're the inferior clan, not the race.


Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: DarknesS on December 23, 2011, 11:55:01 am
SCENARIO
1. You draw first round (enemy Lair was down to 10% when game finished)
2. You can't finish the second round either. There is currently a stallmate with some of them slipping past your lines whenever you attack their sh and those damage an important sub.

What will you do?
a) Don't use behe. Put less people on offense. Just defend/camp more, hold them off and easily attain a draw.
b) Put everyone except for 1 behe defending the sub on offense and finish them

Hakugei Logic: If you chose b) you are inferior to the other team.


Oh and please refrain from nit-picking about how you just said it was about surviving, not winning.




Frankly, if a clan needs behemoths to survive at a CW, they're the inferior clan, not the race.
Frankly, if a clan needs relocators to survive at a CW, they're the inferior clan, not the race.
Frankly, if a clan needs tempest to survive at a CW, they're the inferior clan, not the race.
Frankly, if a clan needs summoners to survive at a CW, they're the inferior clan, not the race.
Frankly, if a clan needs ballistas to survive at a CW, they're the inferior clan, not the race.
Frankly, if a clan needs players to survive at a CW, they're the inferior clan, not the race.
Frankly, if a clan needs good ping to survive at a CW, they're the inferior clan, not the race.
Frankly, if a clan needs electricity to survive at a CW, they're the inferior clan, not the race.
Frankly, if a clan needs oxygen to survive at a CW, they're the inferior clan, not the race.





Title: Re: S20: Behemoth spawn point camping usefulness decreased.
Post by: biggeruniverse on December 25, 2011, 06:32:41 pm
The best clans hold their breath and bone sword rush.