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Savage XR => First generation changes => Topic started by: Daemon on December 28, 2010, 10:01:33 am



Title: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Daemon on December 28, 2010, 10:01:33 am
Suggested by: Mohican
(UPDATED: 2010-12-30)

My re-balancing suggestion:
Improved Attack Mode for Summoner

1. The precise change you wanna see done.
Keep attack the same as before when a player press and release the attack button.
If player keeps the attack button pressed, make the missile follow the crosshair.

2. What triggered it.
Good commanders know how to create impenetrable bases with inaccessible shields.
This can cause endless games that end in a draw (unless someone manages to shimmy his way to the shield).

3. The predicted overall effect of your change.
By using crosshair tracking, summoners should in theory be able to lob shots to any shield.

The impact on the game:

4. What will be harder to do, and for which side.
No more impenetrable bases, this will probably annoy human commanders.
On the other hand, the skill level to reach a shield by crosshair tracking should be made sufficiently difficult.
This can be achieved by making the shot's range shorter, so that a summoner cannot reach shields from a safe position.
Using lobbed shots should require team work (a summoner escorted close to enemy lines by a squad of preds).

5. What will be easier to accomplish, and by whom.
No more need for shimmying, meaning one less thing for referees to monitor (ie: shimmy shield repairing).
Easier for beasts to break turtle bases.

6. Will it make the game harder or easier for newbies (vs. veterans), and why.
The skill level required for this new attack means only vets will be able to use it properly.
Newbies will not be affected by it (unless they decide to have a go at commanding!).

The ripple effect

7. Subsequent changes needed to tone down (compensate for) the effects of this change.
Maybe an increase in the gold cost of the summoner should reflect his improved capability.

8. Other changes, which the current suggestion depends on so it can work properly.
Keep the shimmy exploit fix.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Daemon on December 28, 2010, 10:17:34 am
I would suggest instead of right click, just add a 2nd inventory item weapon.

The problem with summ having 2 different attack modes/skills, tho, is that it would be the only siege unit that does, not to mention being the only ranged siege unit with unlimited shots. Fairness calls for adding the others some kind of 2nd skill as well.

This new projectile could prove troublesome from a technical point of view. In order to land a shot above the towers, it would have to be able to fire RL "mortar-style" rounds, which makes it a very long lasting projectile. At this point, even with restricted camera movements and aiming, catas are able to exploit certain maps and shoot over impassable terrain. But with a much nimbler summ with a 360 degree aiming ability, this should be easier.

How about rethinking the change in terms of adding certain effects to the summ projectile, like a "corrosive" attribute: after hitting the shield, it sticks to it and slowly continues to inflict damage over time, which cumulated with other shots, enables summs to kill a shield in 3 hits instead of 4, if the shield is not repaired. Or an effect that makes "corroded" buildings able to be repaired only with half the efficiency, for the duration of the effect, halving the "mass nomads repair" efficiency.

God knows other siege units are in need of a little variation and help, here and there. For example the Behe could use something to make it worth its cost. Giving his trunk bash a ground shaking effect that freezes or slows enemies in a small radius around it might do the trick.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Mohican on December 28, 2010, 10:27:06 am
In Savage 2, the Behe has several capabilities.
One of them consists of stamping the ground with one foot to freeze ennemies.

I agree that all the siege units need revisiting.
But we may end-up opening a can of worms....


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Daemon on December 28, 2010, 10:35:04 am
You opened it! :D

Well this is the reason this forum exists. Having ideas submitted for "peer review" and see how they fare.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Andy on December 28, 2010, 10:42:32 am
I still don't really get your idea, can you explain it a little more detailed?
And should this gravity shot just damage buildings or also other players?


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Feathers on December 28, 2010, 10:59:43 am
imo bad idea means siege are strong enough as it is, and think about how many more siege whiners you'll get


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Hakugei on December 28, 2010, 11:03:48 am
The siege whiners are due to 1-shotting stuff.
It's not like the 2nd ability will be used for shooting at units, because it's WAY more difficult to aim. (And if it is used for that, be happy, as it's less likely to hit. :p)
You rarely see cata campers compared to bali campers.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: WinterFresh on December 28, 2010, 01:39:52 pm
Replace the classic attack mode with this one.  :-P


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Feathers on December 28, 2010, 02:18:48 pm
maybe instead of a new weapon some sort of mini storm shield (with a cooldown) that can be used again and again


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Mohican on December 28, 2010, 02:34:34 pm
maybe instead of a new weapon some sort of mini storm shield (with a cooldown) that can be used again and again

You missed the point mate.
The idea is to give beasts a way to knock down encased ennemy shields.
This should reduce the number of draws due to turtle bases.

Giving the summoner a shield is just some random idea with no purpose.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Trikitiger on December 28, 2010, 02:35:15 pm
It would be better if you wrote out what you mean by "Gravity Shot" ^^;; Not -everyone- knows what you mean (took me a bit to figure out). The summ shot arcs already, but I see where you get gravity shot from. Instead of having a trajectory of about... I dunno, lets give some good round numbers of 100 meters for every 5 meters of drop (no matter which direction), the second shot allows it to be more catapult like so it can lob shots above certain towers. (so that we don't need to re-include shimmying for turtled bases). Wall-shield style turtle bases you can't prevent, that's just bad map-making and the comm making good use of the territory.

I too think that the second shot should, instead, be a second slot instead of a right-click. All beast use the right-mouse button for a dodge, not an attack (same can be said for hummies and blocking), so why mess with the control scheme and give summs a shot under the right-mouse button? If you have it as a second attack slot, you have an entire spot to change and alter the attack, and not trying to squeeze code into 1 weapon.

Though winterfresh's comment could work too. You have Fireball for a straight-on siege-like weapon, (Summ does 200-some gold of damage if it hits directly while Fireball does 175? Something like that)... But the problem is, if you change the ENTIRE way a unit moves and acts (not as an alternative), you may completely mess up the way people are used to using them. (May, not will)

The only thing I see a problem with it has to do with map making than the game itself. Most maps have Mist shields to prevent catapults but not summ shots (because Summ shots don't arc in the same way as catapults do), maps would then need to also protect against summ shots. Now do note that this has nothing to do with the game itself and more-so has to do with map-making. Also it would need to take some time to check the maps to see if both/all bases are protected by these mist shields in the same way, if they're being used (and if not, may bring about an uneven or unfair battlefield).

Um... Those are the only concerns, to wrap it up:
---I like the idea because it allows for summs to lob shots over towers, much like catapults do (Beasts have no other weapon that does such)
=====This will completely eliminate the need for shimmying
=====You know what HvH is so balanced? That's because they have catas to lob shots over towers towards the shield! This is one reason why HvH is so balanced.
---Having the difficulty significantly harder prevents newbies from just lobbing a shot and hitting the tower with ease
=====Not to mention that you need to be closer for lob shots, which makes protecting the siege all the more important
=====A 50+ HP boost (at max level) won't hurt too much in this retro-spec... will it? It would give them a little more survivability since they need to be closer to hit shields
---As long as it doesn't mess with the tradition control scheme (RMB = dodge, not an attack), it can be fine
=====In other words, it would be best to set the shot up under a second slot
=====If the lob attack were under a second slot, you can alter the control scheme all you want, however you need the control scheme, and without frustrating players

Sidenote: Excuse my spelling (and grammar), it's still a bit early in the morning ^^;;


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Bullet on December 28, 2010, 07:23:15 pm


-or you can make the 2 types of shot as selectable weapons. when you pick summoner unit you can choose between 2 types of shots for your summoner:
1. normal ( the one ingame atm)
2. the gravity shot
 but you cannot have both. i think summs will be overpowered if they do have both.

just like beast melee units choose melee weapon :p

-another sollution, is to have both shots, but that each shot depends on how much mana the summoner unit have.

still, left click = normal shot, right click = gravity shot

the less mana the siege unit have, the less powerfull the shots will be. like:  90 % mana and a normal shot will NOT kill an legionaire :p
and a gravity shot will go further the more mana the shot have.












Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Hakugei on December 28, 2010, 07:28:10 pm
"Fling shot" may be a better name for it. :p
As the normal shot already is affected by "gravity".


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Rostner on December 28, 2010, 10:28:27 pm
I like the idea of picking which shot you have before you spawn.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Bullet on December 29, 2010, 12:06:28 am
I like the idea of picking which shot you have before you spawn.

yeah, if you havegot both shots with the summ, i think the summoners will get too powerful.

it would be like balista shot & cata shot in one unit.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Mohican on December 29, 2010, 03:56:46 am
I like the idea of picking which shot you have before you spawn.

yeah, if you havegot both shots with the summ, i think the summoners will get too powerful.
it would be like balista shot & cata shot in one unit.

The summoner does much less damage than a cata.  :lol:
But I also suggested to make the summoner a little bit more expensive if he gets both attacks.
The other possibility is to have a control for gravity (for instance by keeping the mouse button pressed).
This would work like the bow in reverse (the more you press, the more shot is lobbed).  :-)


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Rostner on December 29, 2010, 07:24:22 am
The other possibility is to have a control for gravity (for instance by keeping the mouse button pressed).
This would work like the bow in reverse (the more you press, the more shot is lobbed).  :-)

I REALLY like this idea, it would take pretty good skill to be able to precisely use it well, and this would make it more of a vet thing to do, who tend to last better in battle as a summ then newbies.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Daemon on December 29, 2010, 09:08:01 am
The other possibility is to have a control for gravity (for instance by keeping the mouse button pressed).
This would work like the bow in reverse (the more you press, the more shot is lobbed).  :-)

I REALLY like this idea, it would take pretty good skill to be able to precisely use it well, and this would make it more of a vet thing to do, who tend to last better in battle as a summ then newbies.

This might not be that easy to do. Not that useful either. If you want control, why don't we give it a controllable "swarm slash projectile" that after shooting, you can change direction a little bit, if you want and have the skill for it, before it hits the target :)


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Mohican on December 29, 2010, 09:37:26 am
The other possibility is to have a control for gravity (for instance by keeping the mouse button pressed).
This would work like the bow in reverse (the more you press, the more shot is lobbed).  :-)

I REALLY like this idea, it would take pretty good skill to be able to precisely use it well, and this would make it more of a vet thing to do, who tend to last better in battle as a summ then newbies.

This might not be that easy to do. Not that useful either. If you want control, why don't we give it a controllable "swarm slash projectile" that after shooting, you can change direction a little bit, if you want and have the skill for it, before it hits the target :)

YEAH!
Like the rocket launcher in BF2, that tries to follow the crosshair!
That would be really cool, and we could then just keep one weapon for the summ.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: COJ-Suoma on December 29, 2010, 02:41:13 pm
Never played BF2... Is it like the same like in hl2? Then its just too overpowered... I have no problems zigzagging through all that towerspam if i could be able to control it like in hl2... I like that reverse-bow idea more :]


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Rostner on December 29, 2010, 05:44:53 pm
That could work as well. In fact, it would make it so a summoner would have to make a summoner stand still for it to go straight (or have really good mouse-work). It would make them more like a bali, which is fine by me because I only play humans. :p


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Daemon on December 29, 2010, 11:15:42 pm
The projectile is too fast for you to zigzag, not to mention that after the 1st tower blocks your line of sight you won't know where the projectile is anymore.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Rostner on December 29, 2010, 11:28:05 pm
OR you could make it so the summoner has to hold the mouse button to control it, and once you've let go of the mouse button you lose control of your shot.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Bullet on December 30, 2010, 02:44:12 am
The projectile is too fast for you to zigzag, not to mention that after the 1st tower blocks your line of sight you won't know where the projectile is anymore.

my computer sucks, and i don't play with much farclip on, maybe between 50-55. on huge maps, i won't be able to see neither the misile shot or the towers after a while.

if savage is a game ment to be played by not only the super modern gaming computers, but also work on old fashioned computers i don't think the misile shot is the sollution.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Mohican on December 30, 2010, 03:28:18 am
OR you could make it so the summoner has to hold the mouse button to control it, and once you've let go of the mouse button you lose control of your shot.

That's a brilliant idea!

(1) It means that the old behaviour of the summoner is kept (by pressing and releasing immediately).
(2) It makes adding lobbed shot capability seemless, instead of feeling like a hack.

I have updated my proposal accordingly.
 :mrgreen:


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Rostner on December 30, 2010, 05:16:45 am
OR you could make it so the summoner has to hold the mouse button to control it, and once you've let go of the mouse button you lose control of your shot.

That's a brilliant idea!

(1) It means that the old behaviour of the summoner is kept (by pressing and releasing immediately).
(2) It makes adding lobbed shot capability seemless, instead of feeling like a hack.

I have updated my proposal accordingly.
 :mrgreen:

I'm honored :D

I give this suggestion a fool F1 now XD


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: COJ-Suoma on December 30, 2010, 08:49:58 pm
But.. Why dont you just go over the towers, count the time it takes to reach the shield and pull hard down? Thats really easy, especially if you've ever used those mouse-controlled rpgs... (hl2, bf2) Even from ground, it would be very easy for everyone to take down the goddamn shield. + theres no way to build defences up there. Unless some portable occluder is implemented, but that would be too easy to abuse.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Daemon on December 30, 2010, 09:30:46 pm
The projectile will have a dominating forward motion. The direction changes are more like corrections, and would only be possible to a very short degree and in a very very short period of time.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Cross on December 30, 2010, 10:29:24 pm
"Good commanders know how to create impenetrable bases with inaccessible shields.
This can cause endless games that end in a draw (unless someone manages to shimmy his way to the shield). "

To bad this isn't the case with humans on Leet anymore. I can count on my hand the amount of GOOD human commanders that play on leet anymore, and most of them seem to prefer to command beast anyways so, it is very, very rare to see a GOOD human commander anymore, and this is coming from someone who sits on Leet 6+ hours a DAY, watching everything.

If you really want to kill and destroy the entirety of the US population and servers then make it even harder and more discouraging to command humans, and with no apparent ease in the future this will be a nail in the coffin.

Unless something else is change to ENCOURAGE more human commanders which has been desperately needed for over a year now, which I've suggested before with changing how towers work for humans, then this would be a horrible idea, if somethings done then yes this will work.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: cutter on December 31, 2010, 12:04:47 am
To bad this isn't the case with humans on Leet anymore. I can count on my hand the amount of GOOD human commanders that play on leet anymore, and most of them seem to prefer to command beast anyways so, it is very, very rare to see a GOOD human commander anymore, and this is coming from someone who sits on Leet 6+ hours a DAY, watching everything.

I don't think balances should be made due to a lack of skill of the savage population.

However, I do not think that summoners need fixing in the way that this topic is suggesting. In games of ~30 players, which I think is the ideal server size, massive turtle bases shouldn't become a problem. Therefore, having a 'bomb' summoner attack is something that is unneccesary, especially since there are other methods of best victory (behes rush, chain sac, gate, and shield saccing).


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Daemon on December 31, 2010, 05:40:15 am
Don't you need some way to kill shields anymore, since shimmying is gone?


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Helios on December 31, 2010, 08:35:26 am
Kind of off-topic but:

Seems like the shields being unreachable isn't as big an issue in stalemates as the shields being rapidly repaired through any damage they do take.  Instead of a new summoner attack, I'd rather just have the rate at which a shield can be repaired capped at something reasonable. (eg: limit the shield repair rate to the speed at which 2-3 nomads can repair it)

Been in tons of games where 4-5 (or more) nomads would just sit on the shield and repair it through any coordinated summoner attacks.  Yes, you can still kill it by having 4 or 5 summ shots hit it in quick succession. However, that's not very easy in a pub where you have to get 4-5 summs across an open field through coil/ballista/cata spam to the single spot from which the shield can be hit and have them all get a successful shot off around the same time before dying.  More often than not, it is damn near impossible just to get them all over there and in range around the same time.

It is quite disheartening for those few times in a long game where the beast team is nearly able to pull it off to have it fail just because the humans can simply repair through the damage.  After those few failed attempts, the summoners go back to potshotting people while the humans spam draw votes until one passes and justifiably so (of course) since "the beasts never made any progress the entire game."  The circle of stalemate goes on.

/end thought-turned-rant


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Daemon on December 31, 2010, 08:57:32 am
This is the fault of largehugeenourmous servers. If it was a, say, 16v16 game, those 6-7 nomads repairing shield woulda meant less folk to stop beast from whoring base or just otherwise coming close. But in 32v32, 6 ppl repairing don't even count, since there are at least that number of newbies in every game, and if they can do something, it's repairing shield.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Helios on December 31, 2010, 09:32:45 am
And back to not commenting since it's pointless.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: TotalNewb on December 31, 2010, 11:56:20 pm
I agree with Helios. It seems pretty reasonable to have it set were only 3 nomads can be repairing a shield tower at once. Would make defeating a human base easier, while not really dramatically changing any game mechanics.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Aneurysm on January 01, 2011, 12:53:36 am
I think Helios' idea has merit as well. Excusing the issue as a server size problem is hardly valuable, because like it or not, that is the current conditions in which we play the game. So the question has to be asked, if we are playing on 64 player servers, why the hell are we not balancing to 64 player servers?


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Mohican on January 01, 2011, 02:56:59 am
This server size thingy is a bit of a red herring guys.
On larger servers you may have more nomads reparing shields, but you also have more summoners.
It's the overall ratio of repair rate vs damage rate that needs looking at.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Helios on January 01, 2011, 03:50:55 am
On larger servers you may have more nomads reparing shields, but you also have more summoners.

Yes but you also have more coil/cata/etc spam through which they have to travel through.  Net result: more often than not, it's harder to even get one summoner to that one spot from which you can hit the shield.

It could be done in a different way, but all I'm saying is extreme turtling behavior should not be rewarded.  Such a change would only cause the human team to have to play a slightly more offensively in their base defense or suffer the consequences.  Hell, beasts have to immediately get on even one siege that makes it near their base or 1 or more buildings are instantly gone, even if a shaman is there shielding.  They can't just sit back and repair through the damage, they have to act.

It's not exactly balanced for a tower that's meant to make buildings around it less destructible be capable of being virtually indestructible in itself.  Such conditions are part of the reason beasts discovered and utilized the "shimmying exploit" as there was simply no other way to kill the shield under the circumstances.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Hakugei on January 01, 2011, 05:21:36 pm
Might be because the "skilled" players use rabid and thus can't defend the summs at long range against coil.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Aneurysm on January 02, 2011, 02:18:35 am
Might be because the "skilled" players use rabid and thus can't defend the summs at long range against coil.

I'm sorry Hakugei but I have to pull you up on this one. Firstly the remark is pointlessly inflammatory. Secondly, carrying ranged weaponry is by no guarantee of being a better means of defending a summoner from ranged fire. As a human with a coil rifle, you only need to hit a summoner with three shots, anyone with reasonable aim can easily soak up the fire they receive while they focus the summoner down, then med up or reloc as the case is needed. In counter to your argument, I would say closing a human with melee forces that player to focus more attention on you personally, rather than being free to fire at summoners. At this point, he has to either greatly increase his danger by dividing his attention between both you and the summoner, or perhaps take the route of using a shield buff to try and soak up the damage while focusing one of you down. The only real time melee takes a back seat to ranged cover is when you are escorting the player into an area in which humans can safely fire at the summoner from underneath towers in sufficient numbers that they prevent you from closing with the target.
Frankly I get tired of the constant vilification of rabid/melee combat, this whole "counter" culture that suggests that it's somehow dirty or evil is just plain stupid. Rabid melee is what makes beasts so horribly mobile and offensive, if it hadn't been discovered and become widely used, the game would never have reached the potential it has today.

You can't have it both ways, pissing and moaning on the one hand about how players are stuck in their ways, only using a select group of weapons. When at the same time you have these forums asking for balance changes with weapons, suggesting that there is a very valid reason for the use of only a select few weapons.

Finally, many skilled players also use other weapons, the most obvious being Tempest, Surge and Blaze. Different situations call for different responses. Good players recognise this and play accordingly, you insult us all with your derisive remarks, let's all cut the sarcastic and snide bull shit and get down to actually constructively improving this game.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Hakugei on January 02, 2011, 09:32:40 am
Tempest is more efficient than rabid to defend summs once you reach the enemy base, unless of course the map is horribly designed and summs isn't even a real option to begin with. (Why are you playing such a map!)
I have a much easier time coiling summs from base (I'm not talking about open on the field, as on the field your base shouldn't be in range of summ shots to begin with) when preds need to come close enough to melee first. With tempest they can both disrupt my aim as well as potentially force me to use medkits (vital time in the life of a shield). If the commander wasn't completely stupid, he'll have placed a few towers around the spawn point, thus further rendering rabid preds less dangerous.

So, no, I'd prefer tempest preds covering me over a bunch of rabid preds only looking out for a few kills.

Exception must be a heavily buffed pred. ;) Think 2 fire buffs and 6 heal buffs to completely occupy the enemy team long enough despite necessary spawn towers.

Think eden2, bunker, snowblind (ignoring the hill perhaps) and surely plenty more without having to list!

It's not pointless inflammatory, it's a fact and opinion. I just didn't feel like typing a long description for something that shouldn't be too difficult to conclude by oneself. :p

Melee is only more useful a certain distance from the enemy base, and you cannot convince me that "skilled" players pick other weapons over rabid willingly (hold a few exceptions that are less self-centered). You just can't. It's usually the less "skilled" players that I see covering me. (Hurray for non-"pros" being more useful!) Be it with shaman, tempest, behe - not rabid. A rabid pred would have to be a LONG distance ahead of the summ to be able to counter coil (can't tell me that's NOT a LONG distance), which means two things - once that FAR ahead rabid pred dies, there's no one even close to the summ to protect him. As well as, it leaves the summ open to distant fire until the pred manages to approach the attacker. AND it leaves the summ open to a potential sneaky enemy appearing out of nowhere (=behind). Question: Would you spawn a summ repeatedly if you're very uncertain you'll even reach close enough to fire off one projectile?


Now stop ignorantly objecting to my comments in the name of "constructive posts" when you fail to see the point of them.
People started to talk about how repairing is too strong while summs are too difficult to get close. I told you WHY. Go spec and see for yourself. It's not a gameplay/-design mistake, it's a player mentality problem. No point fixing the game in ways that will just reward poor behavior. As in, not fixing it, but just dodging it.

As for these summoner suggestions:
Someone could already go and find out what the optimal gravity to use is. (Change one value.) (Try out fireball values for summoner.)
As for the more advanced wish, it'll need hardcoding anyway.

Decrease the value of the human side's defensive capabilities (namely towers) and you'll see a lot more sac and summ rushes without human having the slightest option of fighting back. "It will force humans to play more offensively" is just a very near-sighted opinion on the result, as humans don't have on-par offensive options as beast. Or maybe we'll be blessed with more human stacks to even it out. It's banal to think you can force humans to play offensive if you take away their defense. Next let's take away the beast side's offense to even it out. One of the charms of Savage is precisely the great difference between the two races. If you want a perfect balance, I'd suggest human vs human. No advantage over the other (except if the map is designed strictly for hvb - but hvh servers used to avoid those maps).

Happy now, Ane? You made me type it all out afterall! :( You've become sensitive.


As for me, I'd like a buff to summoner (but it would have to be tiny). Even just reverting accuracy to 1.0 (from 0.9) would be a huge help! You guys are just going overboard now. :) So, sorry, Ane, if I don't share the excitement as the rest here. Clanwars never have "real" problems with summoner being too weak or humans being too turtled. Think about the difference of a CW and a pub if you want to know what's the problem.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Aneurysm on January 02, 2011, 10:15:48 am
My "ignorant" objection to your post is birthed out of a lack of information. Of course I am "ignorant" of your point of view. You typed a singular derisive remark and expect us to bow down to your point of view.


When Daemon originally opened up this sub forum for discussion, I was perhaps a little naive in thinking it would actually encourage people to post constructive view points without getting personally involved and bogged down in the same old tired shit. I am unfortunately seeing very quickly that this isn't the case, and I tell you, I think I've had my fill.

Good luck to you all...I think this "sensitive" bastard has better things to do.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Helios on January 02, 2011, 10:42:06 am
I was going to make a constructive response but why bother, Hakugei is always right.  He is the alpha and omega of savage, the game was blessed with his immaculate administrative conception.  All hail Hakugei.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: WinterFresh on January 02, 2011, 10:55:45 am
Rabid preds are good for defending summs. I'd rather have the legos occupied with preds than with tempests simply because preds deal more damage and at a higher rate than tempest. And if summs get this new attack they will be able to hide more effectively behind hills and getting the towers thus forcing the humans to approach the summs' current location giving an opportunity for the rabid preds to strike back.

This is just my opinion. If you wanna make a shit-storm out of it go for it but don't expect me to reply back.  :-P


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Skuggi on January 02, 2011, 01:18:36 pm
I was going to make a constructive response but why bother, Hakugei is always right.  He is the alpha and omega of savage, the game was blessed with his immaculate administrative conception.  All hail Hakugei.

I completely agree.

I saw Helios' solution as perfectly reasonable but it's bashed down with reasons like 'It's only an issue on large servers' and 'That's only because players use melee and not tempest' (which seems to me irrelevant in this respect). Be that as it may, but the fact remains that there's an issue.

You can argue all you want about how the game should be played on smaller servers, but for some reason most people seem to gather on the large servers. And those who play there include the veterans who've been playing this game for years. So if it's an issue there of course it's an issue...

Not to get too far off topic, but this is exactly the reason I can't be bothered to get involved in balance discussions - it's a road that leads to nowhere and a waste of time.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Daemon on January 02, 2011, 03:00:47 pm
I was going to make a constructive response but why bother, Hakugei is always right.  He is the alpha and omega of savage, the game was blessed with his immaculate administrative conception.  All hail Hakugei.

That's where you're wrong :).

EVERYBODY IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

Hakugei thinks he's always right.
Aneurysm thinks he's the one that's right.
Helios believes his point of view is the right one.
Biggeruniverse, Cutter, Crosslight, Trigardon, Moxy, Skuggi, Robbo, Epoks, Vinter, Shagroth and who the fuck else that has ever played Savage in his life thinks they're the ones that are always right.

That is why myself, which obviously i'm always right, have proposed that there is no way that a single mind or individual can balance the game on his own. You just can't, even if you think you're a genius that's always right. So we reached out.

And now we have all those ppl that are always right pitting ideas against each other. Whatever the decision would be, like:
1. No balancing change.
2. Pick a Newerth admin's suggestion.
3. Pick some random player's suggestion.
4. Pick Helios' suggestion.

... would result in having ALL THE REST of the people involved, which strongly believe their ideas were the perfect ideas, feel ignored and their intelligence insulted, and that Savage is taking a turn for the worse.

Welcome to re-balancing.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Hakugei on January 02, 2011, 03:54:43 pm
Some people just can't bear to have their egos hurt. :) Don't post in a discussion thread then.

There's a few reasons why MPUK is still so popular...
Balance changes and high slot count not one of them.


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Feathers on January 02, 2011, 03:59:54 pm
a reason why some people play on mpuk is because of server slots


Title: Re: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner
Post by: Daemon on January 02, 2011, 04:18:21 pm
From now on, i'm gonna delete posts the likes of mine or Hakugei's, Skuggi's or Helios'. Either stick to the topic, EXPLAIN YOUR IDEAS TO PEOPLE THAT DON'T SHARE THEM, without flaming and attacking one another, please.

For years, people have infested every single non-related thread with the most stupid balance suggestions, and some good ones. And now, when they have a place for those suggestions, all but a few post, and out of those, most give way to their frustrations stemming from feeling as they're not listened.

What did you think, it's was going to be that easy? You post some perfect idea which instantly finds its way into Savage?

THIS TOPIC IS LOCKED.

Start the discussion afresh here:
http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,12568