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Author Topic: Discuss: Climbable/walkable mines vs. mines with old collision boxes  (Read 8692 times)
Daemon
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« on: September 11, 2015, 07:27:54 pm »

As you might have heard, the redstone and gold mine have received new collision boxes in XR 1.2, that makes them climbable or walkable.



Reasons (and pro's):
-it's easier to navigate around collision boxes accurately describing the actual model, and mining feels more consistent
-mines do not arbitrarily stop projectiles passing over them anymore, with no actual visible model blocking line-of-fire
-bad power-mining garrisons/subs that likely ruin a game's balance since the the 1st minute are now a thing of the past
-trying to place a garrison as close as possible no longer cuts of movement to the other side of the mine because of 1 cm too few remaining between garrs and mines
-the number of players PMining is greatly increased since they can stack both on ground level and on top of the mines and PM
-players that managed to get on top of mines can no longer exploit the old collision box and be unreachable for defenders

Con's:
-a small amount of maps (like normalize_physics) that rely on the old mines to block certain choke points are broken (although this is easily fixed by using blockers)
-facilitates a new kind of hill-hugging: mine camping
-stands apart from the other original S2 buildings which have tall collision boxes


-----
Please list more arguments and i'll add them to the list, and discuss the issue. Let's try to find the best solution for this problem.

Thank you!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 09:02:27 pm by Daemon » Logged

JmZ
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« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2015, 08:20:30 pm »

While it is a fairly well done change, it does break several maps (not really a 'small amount', quite a few use mines to block paths, though not all are online at this point). It seems you didn't take this problem into consideration before making your changes, easy mistake.

I suggest you do one of the following:
- Revert the change
- Alter the collision boxes to disallow walking over the mine (will still break several maps, most likely)

Maybe if you want to keep this change, you could go fix the maps you have broken? That way, the problem is solved.
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Daemon
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« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2015, 08:30:38 pm »

If i had i list and that would appear to be the best solution, i will. Fixing is not something i haven't done before Smiley.
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Gridfon
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« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2015, 06:16:18 am »

My main annoyance about the new collision boxes is that this is a new perfect camping spot for T1.
A beast can not reliably leap on top of the mines now. If you want to get on top of a mine to kill lego, you actually have to carefully walk up as a pred. This is not the end of the world but it's a universal camping spot that is much more annoying than the alternatives (like camping ladders or hugging hills).
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Daemon
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2015, 08:29:00 am »

How is this different to any other climbable props like ruins or rocks? Because it's close to base?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 08:45:29 am by Daemon » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2015, 10:52:27 am »

Pretty much all the old buildings made by S2 Games do not have accurate collision boxes either. How come you only changed it for the mine and not the rest of the structures?

I'd also call "-the number of players PMining is greatly increased since they can stack both on ground level and on top of the mines and PM" a con. How is Pmining any fun?

@Gridfon I don't think it only benefits T1. T2 will obviously have an easier time jumping over and to buildings.
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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2015, 12:06:47 pm »

On the following (imcomplete list of) maps my servers might soon use the OLD mine-models.
omo_tehe_dero (and its derivates)
xr_diagonvalley
xr_moss_erebus2
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Daemon
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2015, 12:13:24 pm »

Pretty much all the old buildings made by S2 Games do not have accurate collision boxes either. How come you only changed it for the mine and not the rest of the structures?

I'd also call "-the number of players PMining is greatly increased since they can stack both on ground level and on top of the mines and PM" a con. How is Pmining any fun?

@Gridfon I don't think it only benefits T1. T2 will obviously have an easier time jumping over and to buildings.

You don't get left out when team is PMining, with max 2-3 people on either side in many cases.



The reason the mines got the works was that while i was working on the Autominer, i realized how bad they were. In the long run, though, it might not have been a great idea, although something has to be done regarding PMining. At the moment i'm leaning towards a short climbable rim around the mine and blocky boxes similar to the old ones in the rest. Will post a pic soon.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 12:53:28 pm by Daemon » Logged

Gridfon
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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2015, 01:28:56 pm »

How is this different to any other climbable props like ruins or rocks? Because it's close to base?

I can't remember any other props where leap is useless.
Given that we have uphill leap nowadays, ruins do not pose any problem because you can leap up and dodge or out-heal lego hits.
In case of camping on top of the mine, leap becomes useless to attack human. Either you stay away, or you *walk* on top of the mine spamming fire/heal buffs to survive and fight.
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Daemon
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2015, 01:41:31 pm »

I raised the surfs back as high as the original ones, yet keeping the accurate outline. The only climbable portion is the protruding peninsula (which had a little box before).

New pro's:
-it's accurate, which makes fitting garrisons/subs along the mine's contour easier and more precise.
-the little corner blocking the way can be climbed by jumping (1-2 extra pminers).
-allows for 2-4 more ground level pminers because hitboxes are not too far or too close.
-doesn't require fixing maps using mines to block chokes
-back to the state which prevented mine-hugging

Con's:
-still allows players falling down on mines to be out of reach of the defender

I've tested it quite a bit and it seems okay. I'm attaching it for whoever wants to test until tonight when i'll upload the hotfix so Groen's server gets updated at its usual 3 am. Doing it like that doesn't cause the jitter that occurs when models to go out of sync.



* savage9.s2z (105.64 KB - downloaded 204 times.)
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2015, 02:53:00 pm »

Good job, Daemon.

I liked the walkable mines the most, but seems community does not agree, and the last one you posted is clearly an improvement over the old collision boxes.

Some of those collision boxes for certain stones and buildings are really aweful. Particularly those invisible walls in both sides of both doors to the mini colloseum, and the stones where you can hide in. Crazy.
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JmZ
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« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2015, 07:53:06 pm »

I will try a few maps out if you've changed it again.

The main problem was maps which use mines as a *temporary* blocker. They can't be replaced with an XR blocker because the whole point is to deplete a mine to continue. There is no equivalent prop for this, no equivalent logic.

So if your latest changes fix that, well done (try diagonvalley for example).
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« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2015, 10:03:31 pm »

my humble opinion is that the redstones should be walkable so that maps like bunker or any other map that prefers natural gameplay ro run smoothly

it's immersingly better and can also help powermining better (NEXT TO THE GLORIOUS AUTKMINER)

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Stringer
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« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2015, 09:15:54 am »

Maybe it's a silly question and a lot of work, I don't know.... but is it possible to create 2 different mine objects?
One walkable one not, and use the not-walkable version in maps that require temporary blocker?

Buildings and their collision boxes is one thing, but when you look at the mine, you see a large rock with some crystals, effectively, a part of terrain.
And it always bugged me that I can't walk on it like I can on other rocks.

Of course, it will be somewhat puzzling for regular players, why some mines can be walked upon, and some not.
But maybe it's not that bad.
Or maybe the non-walkable version could have some kind of fence up on it, or just have the rock bigger, to indicate visually you can't walk there.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 09:21:15 am by Stringer » Logged

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Daemon
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« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2015, 10:10:55 am »

It's no trouble for me at all since i've already made them. And i've thought about that too. But either way, it involves some effort from the mappers to make or update maps while the walkable mine would still not address the mine-hugging issue.
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