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Author Topic: Time to balance Savage? Part Two  (Read 29800 times)
pingu
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« on: May 08, 2008, 05:18:45 pm »

I've taken a lot of input from you guys, but I still have a list of major changes that really need implementing. Take a look:

Research changes:
  • Automatic chaplain/shaman unit when monastery/sanctuary building is built. Shamans and chaplains are usually not researched unless the commander has a lot of extra stone, due to the
  • Switch sac and firewards in the tech tree, as well as demos and landmines. Rushing sac or demos has always been a perfectly viable tactic, but it is too overpowered that it ruins games. The question has always been: "Can we get a shield up in time before the inevitable sac rush?" The fact is, sac is a level 1 item and shield requires level 2. In an empty server with the intent to get sac/shield as quickly as possible: it took 3:04 to get a shield and costed 2550 redstone while it took 2:24 to get sac and costed 2100 redstone (taken from old topic). These numbers ignore the need for a forward sub and frenzy, just like they ignore getting humans a weapon, meds, and blocking off the shield. When you switch sac and firewards, we get a situation where both take about the same time to research and cost about the same (depending on the situation). The fact is, sac will NOT be nerfed in any way, it will just come a minute later and give both teams an equal chance to fortify themselves. Sac rushing can still win games, especially if humans go chem or electric, but the end result will be to stop this absurd trend towards always going mag and fire and having games come down to whether the shield can go up in time.

Unit changes:
  • Decrease ballista rate of fire and increase health. Ballistas remain a favorite for killing players because of their one-hit-kill and their relatively fast fire rate for such a weapon. To fix this, we can decrease the rate of fire so that ballistas have a harder time hitting units. However, so to not disrupt the ballista's ability to kill buildings, it needs more health to make up for the loss in potential building damage. Not much more health, but enough to survive for a little bit longer and be more like the catapult, a slower but stronger weapon.

Weapon changes:
  • Increase chaos bolt speed. Chaos bolt does massive damage for it's tier, but completely lacks because it's near impossible to hit people with it. Increase the speed, make it a better weapon.
  • Lower fireball charge up time. Again, another sucky weapon. This may not completely fix the weapon, but it comes closer to making it a viable option, especially when it is third tier and is used less than most first tier weapons.
  • Fix flux stamina drain. Already fixed, now we wait for XR.
  • Increase launcher speed and damage, but heavily increase reload time. Once again, a terrible weapon when you consider how underused it is compared to coil, pulse, and even flux.

Item changes:
  • Sixth sense shows enemies on the minimap for the team. Would give people more reason to use the item. Sensors put enemies on the minimap, why not sixth sense?
  • Snared humans have a second long delay when using relocator. A way to make snare more powerful and relocators less.

Other changes:
  • Behes join the other siege units and cannot capture flags. Helps limit flag camping by stopping one behe from sitting there and allowing reinforcements to spawn in (aka more behes).

Will add more as I see fit.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2008, 08:17:24 pm by pingu » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2008, 05:36:10 pm »

my 2 cents:

Research changes:
  • Automatic chaplain/shaman unit when monastery/sanctuary building is built (no more need to research them) Yes
  • Switch sac and firewards in the tech tree, as well as demos and landmines (controversial, but would greatly improve the game) No

Unit changes:
  • Decrease ballista rate of fire and increase health (to make up for slower rate of fire against buildings) No, as much as it might influence siege-whoring - i see too much negative input on killing subs - once u start fireing you have a bunch of beast all over you (even if covered my team)
  • Slightly increase summ rate of fire, slightly decrease building damage (to make up for faster rate), and decrease player damage. No, kinda same as at balli - it's allready hard with a sneaky summ  to get the 4 shots at shield without being massively attacked
  • Slightly reduce behe player damage (so that a lego of any level can block) Yes

Weapon changes:
  • Chaos bolt! Yes
  • Lower fireball charge up time. Yes
  • Fix flux stamina drain. No - or decrease rabid stamina regain
  • Increase launcher speed and damage, but heavily increase reload time (make it more like a rocket launcher) Yes

Item changes:
  • Sixth sense shows enemies on the minimap for the team. Yes
  • Snared humans have a second long delay when using relocator Yes

Other changes:
  • Multiple factories increases buff pool regen speed. Yes
  • Behes join the other siege units and cannot capture flags No, as much as it sux - but humans can still exit siege and capture it

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« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2008, 05:49:29 pm »

Research changes:

Automatic chaplain/shaman unit when monastery/sanctuary building is built (no more need to research them) Nope as I believe shams and chaps when used correctly provide a tatical advantage thus cost. Then again I do understand this being used in pub games, prehaps ref/admin to turn off/on.
Switch sac and firewards in the tech tree, as well as demos and landmines (controversial, but would greatly improve the game) No

Unit changes:

Decrease ballista rate of fire and increase health (to make up for slower rate of fire against buildings) No i agree with hell'

Slightly increase summ rate of fire, slightly decrease building damage (to make up for faster rate), and decrease player damage. Nope, even if you decrease damage, summ whoring will increase, also what hell' said.

Slightly reduce behe player damage (so that a lego of any level can block) No, its a tree ffs!

Weapon changes:

Chaos bolt! Yes
Lower fireball charge up time. Slightly, would increase the chance of fireballing a shield down.
Fix flux stamina drain. Yes
Increase launcher speed and damage, but heavily increase reload time (make it more like a rocket launcher) Yes

Item changes:

Sixth sense shows enemies on the minimap for the team. Nope
Snared humans have a second long delay when using relocator NO! Leave the relocater alone.

Other changes:

Multiple factories increases buff pool regen speed. Yes
Behes join the other siege units and cannot capture flags No, agree with hell'.
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pingu
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« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2008, 06:31:24 pm »

The point of the changes to the siege units is to decrease farming players while keep building damage the same. Although ballista attack speed is decreased, the extra damage done thanks to the health increase (live through one more shot in some cases) makes up for the lost damage with an extra shot. However, now it is harder to farm players because you can't shoot as rapidly. Same goes for summ, because diluting summ shots (less power, more of them) will stop instant-deaths (at least to legos) and yet does the same building damage for the same amount of time.
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« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2008, 07:40:24 pm »

Research changes:
  • Automatic chaplain/shaman unit when monastery/sanctuary building is built (no more need to research them) Yes
  • Switch sac and firewards in the tech tree, as well as demos and landmines (controversial, but would greatly improve the game) in what way? No

Unit changes:
  • Decrease ballista rate of fire and increase health (to make up for slower rate of fire against buildings) No
  • Slightly increase summ rate of fire, slightly decrease building damage (to make up for faster rate), and decrease player damage. No, decrease in fire rate is all that would be needed
  • Slightly reduce behe player damage (so that a lego of any level can block) useless, by the time behe is made most players can block behe anyway

Weapon changes:
  • Chaos bolt! No, healing spire shooting is lame, making it shoot better is lamer
  • Lower fireball charge up time. No, and why
  • Fix flux stamina drain. Yes
  • Increase launcher speed and damage, but heavily increase reload time (make it more like a rocket launcher) Yes

Item changes:
  • Sixth sense shows enemies on the minimap for the team. Yes
  • Snared humans have a second long delay when using relocator No

Other changes:
  • Multiple factories increases buff pool regen speed. No
  • Behes join the other siege units and cannot capture flags Yes


edit: removed the quto so it's easier to read
« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 07:58:53 pm by hell' » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2008, 07:46:02 pm »

Research changes:
  • Automatic chaplain/shaman unit when monastery/sanctuary building is built (no more need to research them) Yes
  • Switch sac and firewards in the tech tree, as well as demos and landmines (controversial, but would greatly improve the game) No

Unit changes:
  • Decrease ballista rate of fire and increase health (to make up for slower rate of fire against buildings) no
  • Slightly increase summ rate of fire, slightly decrease building damage (to make up for faster rate), and decrease player damage. No
  • Slightly reduce behe player damage (so that a lego of any level can block) Yes

Weapon changes:
  • Chaos bolt! Yes, but decrease the amount of damage healing spires do.
  • Lower fireball charge up time. Yes
  • Fix flux stamina drain. Yes
  • Increase launcher speed and damage, but heavily increase reload time (make it more like a rocket launcher) Yes, but make it so that you can switch to items or to melee instantly after you use it (like as fast as you can after using mortar)

Item changes:
  • Sixth sense shows enemies on the minimap for the team. Yes
  • Snared humans have a second long delay when using relocator No, thats probably one of the tims that humans need relcator the most.

Other changes:
  • Multiple factories increases buff pool regen speed. Yes
  • Behes join the other siege units and cannot capture flags No,


« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 07:52:09 pm by cutter » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2008, 08:06:47 pm »

Yes to all, change is good
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Vinther
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« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2008, 08:28:15 pm »

Research changes:
  • Automatic chaplain/shaman unit when monastery/sanctuary building is built (no more need to research them) Yes
  • Switch sac and firewards in the tech tree, as well as demos and landmines (controversial, but would greatly improve the game) in what way? No

Unit changes:
  • Decrease ballista rate of fire and increase health (to make up for slower rate of fire against buildings) No
  • Slightly increase summ rate of fire, slightly decrease building damage (to make up for faster rate), and decrease player damage. No, decrease in fire rate is all that would be needed
  • Slightly reduce behe player damage (so that a lego of any level can block) useless, by the time behe is made most players can block behe anyway

Weapon changes:
  • Chaos bolt! No, healing spire shooting is lame, making it shoot better is lamer
  • Lower fireball charge up time. No, and why
  • Fix flux stamina drain. Yes
  • Increase launcher speed and damage, but heavily increase reload time (make it more like a rocket launcher) Yes

Item changes:
  • Sixth sense shows enemies on the minimap for the team. Yes
  • Snared humans have a second long delay when using relocator No

Other changes:
  • Multiple factories increases buff pool regen speed. No
  • Behes join the other siege units and cannot capture flags Yes


edit: removed the quto so it's easier to read

Like this.


The most crazy idea is the thing about the buffs. Like buffs aren't almost imba already. Human buffs are much stronger than beast buffs!
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« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2008, 08:31:29 pm »

Add "Fix sacrifice sound (I hope you know what I mean)" and "Fix Behe hit animation (sometimes there is none when the behe is attacking...)".  Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2008, 08:45:13 pm »

Great job Pingu, nice to see some steps forward towards creating balance. I agree with every change. The only thing I would change is, make surge blockable, uninterrupted. Since flux is leapable, surge should be blockable.

And one more thing, healing spires should be destroyed by one demo, just like one sac can kill a shield tower.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 08:49:11 pm by CrossLight » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2008, 09:14:19 pm »

the fire/chem suggestion is still terrible
fireball don't need boost
launcher is fine
behes need a hp boost, maybe building dmg boost as well (should be 2hits to kill a shielded guard tower imo)
sensor shouldn't see gates (or any buildings really)
balli needs a vs player nerf but not vs buildings, so slower rate of fire is bad
summs shouldnt be nerfed towards buildings
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« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2008, 09:14:33 pm »

make surge blockable, uninterrupted. Since flux is leapable, surge should be blockable.

And one more thing, healing spires should be destroyed by one demo, just like one sac can kill a shield tower.


Yes.

lol cross, demos do destroy healing spire in one shot, you just have to place it right
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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2008, 09:20:33 pm »

Really?? I've demo them many of times and I don't recall them ever dying from one demo.. I always have to swing at it a few times before dropping a demo and sometimes, still doesn't die with a sliver of health left, and by time I get back its full health.

How do you drop it right? I place it literally next to it, I run right up against it and drop it.
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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2008, 10:21:45 pm »

lol, i think its time u stop playing on rdh and time that u come to play on leets
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its probably the dumb server settings that they have there.
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« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2008, 11:00:21 pm »

most of your ideas are fine pingu, i just dont agree with switching sac / demos to wards / mines because that takes all the fun from clanwars.. beasts cant tecnically win after that because humans can get shield up faster than sac is researched :S
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