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Author Topic: statistical gameplay balance as a requirement for maps?  (Read 1106 times)
Bullet
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« on: July 16, 2017, 11:26:48 am »

Disclaimer: This might be the wrong thread for this, newertheless, some of it is relevant to map-admins.

Considering the large number of maps savage have and the huge number of un-balanced maps, I was thinking that maybe it should be made a requirement that maps without a certain degree of balance, was removed from the server (or not approved as maps at all).

Basically, this is what I imagine, theres one newerth/map-admin part, and one server part:

Newerth part:
1. Mapper submits map, gets approved by map-admin  for beeing OK, and gets status "alfa" or whatever you want to call it.

Server part:
2. Map gets automatically included on the official server on groentjuh's/pulse
3. after beeing played 20 times, and if balance is below 40 % for any of the races (draws are excluded), the map gets removed from the server/map pool. This script could be run at some interval, like, once a day or something.

Newerth and/or server part together:
4. The map gets status as "alfa-unblanaced" or something like that on newerth, preferably automatically when the server removes it from its map-pool.

Newerth part:
5. The mapper need to do changes to the map to get it resubmitted.

Basically, the idea is to make sure mappers create balanced maps, and to avoid maps which are bad for balanced gameplay.
Of course, groentjuh/pulse will need to agree on this idea, aswell as that the technical implementation is yet to be done  Tongue

« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 11:30:12 am by Bullet » Logged

kLLik
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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2017, 12:50:33 pm »

Server part:
2. Map gets automatically included on the official server on groentjuh's/pulse

Agreed, Pulse and groentjuh are the most played servers, they should get linked.. i mean if someone put a map offline on groentjuh this should be automatically offline on pulse.

3. after beeing played 20 times, and if balance is below 40 % for any of the races (draws are excluded), the map gets removed from the server/map pool. This script could be run at some interval, like, once a day or something.

Few maps are balanced, and few maps do not have stats, how that script will recognize maps without stats?

1. Mapper submits map, gets approved by map-admin  for beeing OK, and gets status "alfa" or whatever you want to call it.

tell me, last time when a map admin took care about a map? why mappers can't get "afla" status??

Map pool should contain all maps. And old maps should get re make or offline.
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Bullet
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« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2017, 03:13:39 pm »

Ok, reworked logic:

Some simple colour codes to keep track of roles
Green : mapper
Blue : Map-admin on newerth
Red: Newerth map-database.
Yellow: Server
Orange: Script on server that interact with newerth map database


1. Mapper submits a new map, called xr_test to the newerth map database (the london box I think?)
2. xr_test gets the status set to under "development - waiting for the first check", after upload automatically.
3. A  newerth map-admin quality checks the map for basic stuff like exploitable areas and minimap design. If it passes his check, the map status is set to "online-unplayed", if it is denied, the status is set to "offline - needs fixing"
4. Each day a script on the server(s) fetch new maps to the groentjuh/pulse map pool from newerth, with the statuses "online-unplayed" or "online - balance check"(and of course, avoid duplicates).
5. Once a day, another script on the server(s) removes any maps played 20 times or more from its pool, with a win rating below 40 % for either race (draws are not counted).
6. The maps which are unbalanced in 5. are sent from the server to the newerth map database, and changes the respective maps status to "under developement - unbalanced".
7. If the mapper decides to fix the map's balance, he does the appropriate changes, and submits it again.
8. Newerth map database detect a change to the  allready existing map, and set the status to "online-balance check" automatically upon file upload, and replaced the old file with the newly updated version. The older stats gets deleted
7. Once every month, the server also sends all maps with 20 or more games played, with win rating above 40 % for both races, to the newerth map database, and updates all those maps to "online - balanced"

-----------------------------------------------------------

@kLLik
Regarding maps without stats:
Its quite simple, maps without stats are not played (since there is no stats, under the assumption that playing one records the stats). Hence, any maps which are not played, are not important. They're just there, people dont like them, but eventually they will be played 20 times, and removed if unbalanced.

Regarding map admins "taking care" of a map:
As far as I know, any maps submitted by mappers (unless they are "greenlit"), must be checked by map admins. Check http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,11653.0.html here for reference. If that doesnt happen to your maps, well, maybe someone isnt doing what they are supposed to do.  Huh
Theres also a nice checklist for mappers to use before submitting a map, and which I assume map-admins verify on new maps.
Link to that list is here: http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,8422.0.html

Regarding that map pool should contain "all maps":
Specificy which map pool you think of please. Newerth database have one, and a normal server have their own map pool.
I agree that all maps should be on newerth map database. But I do not agree on that all maps should be on the server.

Regarding that "alfa" status:
Thats just a word i put to demonstrate that it should receive some status which indicates that even though it passed a map-admins checks, it isnt finished in terms of balance, and that status is the keyword in any query a server does to the map database to fetch new maps.


« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 03:54:29 pm by Bullet » Logged

kLLik
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« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2017, 03:24:47 pm »

So you say maps without stats are not played?

So xr_assault, xr_city, xr_circle, etc etc never was played?
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Bullet
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2017, 03:52:10 pm »

You're right, there is maps that gets played and yet, for some reason, dont have stats.

Im not sure why. I assume it have something to do with how servers records stats. I think not all servers record stats (either pulse or groentjuh doesnt maybe?). Im not entirely sure about how it is structured, but that should be fixed such that all servers keep stats records for maps played on the server (it needs to be seperately, because server settings can affect balance).

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kLLik
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2017, 04:05:54 pm »

Don't know why those maps don't have stats.. they just don't record any server not just g&k or pulse.

But what i can't understand why a map admin must check a mapper? For what is mapper rank? If any player can open editor and make a map then upload on newerth..

And I don't know if is a good idea to put offline a unbalanced map Smiley "under developement - unbalanced" means offline or out of map pool?

« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 04:08:26 pm by kLLik » Logged

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SavageBeard
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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2017, 05:49:37 pm »

No, because balance isnt the deciding factor in which maps are enjoyed on public servers.
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Brad_Troika
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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2017, 06:49:37 pm »

No, because balance isnt the deciding factor in which maps are enjoyed on public servers.
I agree and I think izi was a good example. Horribly balanced in favour of beasts yet one of the most played maps.
I wouldn't call balance a non-issue but certainly not important enough to warrant a script banning maps.
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Bullet
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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2017, 09:23:42 pm »

imho un-balanced maps kills server population very effectively. Particulary if the same maps  are played very repepetitively.

The reason it kills server population is because people tend to have more love-hate relations to unbalanced maps, some love them, other hate them. Balanced maps does on the contrary provide equal chances to win, which again, result in less dramatical relations to the map.

 

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kLLik
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« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2017, 11:12:51 am »

The reason it kills sever population is THE SAME OLD AND HUGE MAPS and most of them looks like **, you think player know if a map is balanced or not? he just need to play good maps, the are a lot new maps but unknown by players..  so what we need is: a pool with new maps and another pool with old maps and players can decide to vote for new or old map.. or the map should come random from new maps pool or old maps pool, if there is no vote.

And about old maps, we must to decide to keep just 1 online, or two depens if there is a summer or winter version..

for example i give bunker, we have bunker, bunker_fall, xr_bunker2.. why we have 3 version of bunker online? why we don't keep just the new version xr_bunker2??
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 11:55:24 am by kLLik » Logged

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