Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 22, 2018, 05:30:06 am

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Savage: XR is a new patch for Savage, created by the Newerth.com staff. The XR1.1 Client is out now! Download it now!
189321 Posts in 10970 Topics by 18118 Members
Latest Member: farikadol
* Home Forum Wiki Help Search Login Register
+  Newerth Forums
|-+  Savage XR
| |-+  Re-balancing Suggestions
| | |-+  Healers more viable early and midgame
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Healers more viable early and midgame  (Read 1575 times)
Daemon
XR Main Developer
Legendary Member
****
Posts: 4790


beware, for this is the everbroken...


View Profile
« on: July 02, 2017, 12:58:29 pm »

Empower healing units enough to make them a viable choice for commanders early and midgame.

In their current form, healers still don't have a substancial impact on the game. Sure, Shamans will help beasts push over long distances as long as they don't get hunted (wich they will), and since the latest change a group of Chaplains can become a well-oiled "ball of healing" when playing against a sub-par team. But mostly both fail to impact pushes or alter gameplay all too much.

This may be an area of improvement, and there are a couple ideas and changes I've been thinking about for a while now, that I'dd like to share with you, in the upcoming days.

1. Change the Chaplain's Revive skill into a ranged ability

Ever tried to revive a Legionnare in the middle of a teamfight? The first thing that usually gets on my plate is a Chaplain Sandwich with Predators being the buns. No chance you're going to get that block off in time especially when you consiter the Chaplain animation is finnished right before the guy you're reviving. Two preds at once? Forget about it.

I'm not even going to start with revive being pretty useless as most people will relocate away immediatly, leaving you stranded and vulnerable for dinner.

By giving the chaplains a chance to do their good work from the back, in the bushes, or anywhere away from the Chaplain Meatloaf loving Predators, Revive can actually be a pretty good skill for use during battles and gives the caster some time to recover while not being reduced to Chaplain Sausage.

I'dd say give it a range for about 50% of Flux range

Pros:
Increases Chaplain survivability
Makes Revive more effective during fights


Cons:
Makes Chaplains play more carefull?
Idk, can't really think of anything

Logged

Tjens
I make maps and stuff
XR Map Administrator
Super Hero Member
***
Posts: 1970


GIFMEISTER


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2017, 12:29:21 pm »

2. Add a lingering effect to the Shaman's protection beam to all allies and buildings except for behemoths.

The protection beam in it's current form is a great tool for protecting behemoths during trains and to a lesser extend- buildings from siege units. In any other situation the healing ray is allot more effective protecting both summoners and fighting units alike. Summoners survive longer from the amount of health given back than the actual damage protected by the protection beam, and protecting any other unit during combat is as managable as focussing a laserpointer on one of a group of fighting cats.  

ShamanShield Beast Frenzy

By adding a small lingering effect it's protective qualities could prove the beam a little more effective protecting both multiple units and lonely allies during fights. By restricting this effect to dissaclude those powerhungry mamoths, the change won't further empower the infamous Behetrain.

Start off with a 1 second linger, and either reduce or increase after playtesting.

Pros:
+ Makes the beam eazier to aim;
+ more effective protecting groups
+ more effective during one on one fights


Cons:
- Makes the shaman a quicker target for ranged weapony as the beam will protect better
- Shamans are already more usefull than chaplains


 
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 12:11:45 pm by Tjens » Logged

Bullet
Python enthusiast
Newerth Donator
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 348



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2017, 09:43:42 pm »

Regarding suggestion 1 (ranged ability for chaps to revive):

I'm all in for making chaplin revival ranged. However, with some restrictions. Here is some simple brainstorming on how these restrictions can be:

1. Limited uses for ranged, in this case, that the revival will behave like a ranged weapon, but does not refill ammo (and is not buyable in loadout menu of course). The uses refill on respawn. Upon hit, the chaplin does the revive animation (and cannot shoot or move).

2. A ability, which can be charged to use it from further distance (holding left click long --> increased range on reviving, with targets close beeing easy to revive, and further targets away beeing harder to revive). Can be used with option 1 aswell.

3. A throwable item which revives all friendly players in a area (like a disruptor, just reviving instead of disrupting shit). Limited throwables, range similar or maybe a little bit further than disruptors. Delay before execution (like disruptors again). Bounce of the ground aswell.


Regarding suggestion 2 (shaman lingering effect):

I dislike it because I find the shamans useful and gifted enough to do their purpose as a support unit on the ground allready. And in comparison to the chaplins, they are way more useful.
Logged

Tjens
I make maps and stuff
XR Map Administrator
Super Hero Member
***
Posts: 1970


GIFMEISTER


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2017, 12:01:38 pm »

...
1. Limited uses for ranged, in this case, that the revival will behave like a ranged weapon, but does not refill ammo (and is not buyable in loadout menu of course). The uses refill on respawn. Upon hit, the chaplin does the revive animation (and cannot shoot or move).

I think the most natural way to make a ranged revive targetable is making it a targetable beam, much like an officers mark only continuously. When selected, players can aim the beam around the battlefield and when targeted above an revivable allied corpse it centers on the target to recieve a natural "snap" and changes to a brighter/lighter color. During aiming the beam should only be visible by the caster. When the revive is casted, the usual revive animation takes place.


1. The beam is without a valid target, aiming max range
2. Beam is centered on target
3. Target is being revived (looks less bright ingame)




@Bullet: What is the reason you would want to impose ristrictions to the amount of revives after unit purchace? This can eazily be negated by changing units in the loadoutscreen, as it resupplies ammo. You could make revive "ammo" reset only after death, but this would make revive reset after you have been revived :p. Furthermore, why would you limit the amount of revives all together? The skill is underused as is, as are chaplains!

Regarding suggestion 2, yes - shamans are allot more usefull than chaplains at this point, but are still woefully underused during the early and midgame. These suggestions are trying to combat just that issue! Also, this particular change is not so much aimed at making shamans more usefull as a whole, but is directly targeting the underuse of the protection beam, wich is specifically ineffective during melee fights.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 04:37:26 pm by Tjens » Logged

kLLik
XR Mapper
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 265


gg izi


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2017, 03:58:19 am »

You can add a new ability to revive himself, but he can use it once. To be something like a medkit.. after he used it, the ability  will be gonne until he visits lair/sh.
Logged

just ask..
Bullet
Python enthusiast
Newerth Donator
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 348



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2017, 12:14:18 pm »

Regarding the targettable beam: I like this idea, and nice illustration of how it can be done. One note though: wont it be a mess if many friendly players die close to each other? In that case, I would prefer a throwable options that bounce, and revive multiple targets within an area (like a disruptor) . The downside  of that is that it is much harder to use in some cases.

Btw, I think I misunderstood your initial suggestion, It was my understanding that the ranged revive ability wouldnt have any form of delay between their uses (no revive animation for the chap upon revival of friendly teammate). That was the main reason I wanted some form of restrictions which would delay the "fire rate" with the ranged revive ability.  Smiley

 
However, even with the traditional revive animation in place as a restriction, I think on some maps the ranged ability will become very powerful. Take for instance, crossroads, and the little hill above the human flag. If a chap camps there, beasts will definately struggle  way more to get the flag. Similarly, this scenario will take place on any maps where humans can stay on a hard-to-reach area for beasts over any flags.

An alternative implentation could be that the chap have X number of ranged revives, but the second he have used those, he need to revive the old, completely traditional(but suicidal) way, by jumping into action to reach that dead fella. Of course, the ranged ability refills its uses when re-entering any spawnpoints.

reply to kLLik:
Such a ability is very strong, imagine if a chap dies by a flag, but havent used his skill. The chap can simply wait, while dead, for any enemies to leave the area, before respawning and then re-capturing the flag. Give the idea some more thought, how would this affect behecamping, for example?  Smiley
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 12:16:33 pm by Bullet » Logged

kLLik
XR Mapper
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 265


gg izi


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2017, 05:06:47 pm »

Well. Lets say the ability will be like a passive, and commander mush research it. After a shaman die something show up for 5 secs and give him chance to revive but this should cost something.. like 10-25 points of strata/magnetic power or 25-50 mana, etc.

About behemoth why don't give him mana power and he can attack just when he have full mana, like when his "tree" is fully rechared. And when he spam at flag he will wait 2-3 secs until he get 100 mana..
Logged

just ask..
Daemon
XR Main Developer
Legendary Member
****
Posts: 4790


beware, for this is the everbroken...


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2017, 05:18:34 pm »

Quote from: Hakugei
But I'm not sure if that's the solution to the Chap problem.
It seems more like it would just give the preds another free kill. :p
Logged

Tjens
I make maps and stuff
XR Map Administrator
Super Hero Member
***
Posts: 1970


GIFMEISTER


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2017, 03:00:24 pm »

Quote from: Hakugei
But I'm not sure if that's the solution to the Chap problem.
It seems more like it would just give the preds another free kill. :p

True enough! So here we arrive at my third proposition!

3. Give chaplains a selectable 9th item wich, when activated grands shield-like protection from damage but makes the unit unable to attack. Ability lasts for about 5 seconds, has a 20 seconds cooldown.

Thoughtfull choices
Whooow wait, TJENS, you're saying that you want to give chaplains shield buffs? Well, yes and no. We want to improve Chaplain survivabilty and we want to bring chaplains to the frontlines, what we don't want is Chaplains becomming instoppable flurrymachines. Making chaplains unable to attack also forces them to use the abilty thoughtfully; do I run into the battle protected so I can quickly help my teammates or do I use the ability to get me to safety afterwards?

More survivabilty
The ability still forces Chaplains to stick around with teammates as it won't enhance the chaplains fighting prowess, but it does make them more able to help around without being pressed into Chaplain cheese. With this ability you can now lead a group of raiders with the ability to quickly get back to safety. You can rush towards a revivable ally and actually survive!

No more cowards of the legion
When beast players get to know the new ability they'll be more inclined to go after fighting units first, as chaplains make for a lot thougher target initially. Human players have more incentive to push knowing they can successfully be revived by a chaplain instead of returning to loadout immediatly.

Strong against summoners
The big potential drawback of this abilty is that is makes them excellent summoner hunters - being able to close into range protected by their holy fervor will make them quite strong against lonely summoners, maybe too strong.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 07:27:10 pm by Tjens » Logged

Daemon
XR Main Developer
Legendary Member
****
Posts: 4790


beware, for this is the everbroken...


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2017, 03:24:35 pm »

Sounds interesting, on some level Smiley. Mind if we borrow the idea and use it eith Jaraziah? Smiley
Logged

Tjens
I make maps and stuff
XR Map Administrator
Super Hero Member
***
Posts: 1970


GIFMEISTER


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2017, 03:42:15 pm »

I would be honored but that would'nt help Chaplains   Sad
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 03:52:43 pm by Tjens » Logged

Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.026 seconds with 19 queries.