Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
July 16, 2018, 11:08:20 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Savage: XR is a new patch for Savage, created by the Newerth.com staff. The XR1.1 Client is out now! Download it now!
189117 Posts in 10953 Topics by 18015 Members
Latest Member: C.I.A.
* Home Forum Wiki Help Search Login Register
+  Newerth Forums
|-+  Savage XR
| |-+  Re-balancing Suggestions
| | |-+  2nd generation changes
| | | |-+  Discuss: Incinerator
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Discuss: Incinerator  (Read 1353 times)
Daemon
XR Main Developer
Legendary Member
****
Posts: 4775


beware, for this is the everbroken...


View Profile
« on: February 27, 2017, 02:32:41 pm »

First gen balance suggestion:
http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,12958.0.html

Other suggestions:
not sure if this has been posted already but i got a suggestion, some of us talked about ingame with rather positive reactions:

Remake/Buff Incinerator

e.g. increase range/aoe (a lot) and damage slightly.

nowadays incinerator isnt used at all. so why not make it actually usefull.

Please discuss this subject. Let's round up some possible ways to improve it. They may be scattered around.
Logged

Nanaa
Newerth Donator
Hero Member
****
Posts: 654



View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2017, 04:41:27 pm »

Make it like surge but close range only and less dps.
Logged
Daemon
XR Main Developer
Legendary Member
****
Posts: 4775


beware, for this is the everbroken...


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2017, 06:18:02 pm »

Come up with some clear values we can discuss, please. Range, projectile size/splash, damage etc. Thanks.
Logged

Nanaa
Newerth Donator
Hero Member
****
Posts: 654



View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2017, 06:41:45 pm »

Increase Incinerator's projectile velocity(?) from 367 to 1000 (to match surge). Increase range to be 80% of flux' range. Add splash damage like surge has.

***

For reference, here's a weapon stats spread sheet I made 2 years ago: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iyDuOat2MBVxdcSmuGQTjjSTYMAH8TTBWBhJYINlQHQ/edit#gid=2001906169

(Can't guarantee everything is 100% accurate there and some of the stat names are assumptions. For example, one odd thing is that discharger's projectile velocity is only 667 (only slighty faster than blaze 600). Since it's a chargeable weapon I guess the velocity gets multiplied the longer you charge.)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 06:47:38 pm by Nanaa » Logged
-Lee-
Newbie
*
Posts: 31


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2017, 06:51:41 pm »

my initial idea was to make it a weapon with a actual big aoe, not a surge/flux like one. because the worst thing about how it is right now is actually hitting stuff. you have to be really close and its very hard to get a constant hit on moving targets.

so as i said in the original post, increase its range and aoe (by 2x for example) and increase the damage if needed.

i looked at your spreadsheet nanaa, i couldnt find anywhere where the aoe is described, or is it just optical and it actually hits like flux or surge?
Logged
Nanaa
Newerth Donator
Hero Member
****
Posts: 654



View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2017, 07:02:45 pm »

my initial idea was to make it a weapon with a actual big aoe, not a surge/flux like one. because the worst thing about how it is right now is actually hitting stuff. you have to be really close and its very hard to get a constant hit on moving targets.

so as i said in the original post, increase its range and aoe (by 2x for example) and increase the damage if needed.

i looked at your spreadsheet nanaa, i couldnt find anywhere where the aoe is described, or is it just optical and it actually hits like flux or surge?

As far as I remember, I didn't find a stat for AoE in the game files so that's why I don't have it there.

If you increase projectile velocity 3x, it also makes hitting stuff easier so bigger AoE might not be necessary.
Logged
SavageBeard
XR Map Administrator
Sr. Member
***
Posts: 263


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2017, 07:42:11 pm »

2x faster projectiles, 1,5x range, 1,5x aoe

and the damage could be a DOT much like venomous, if hit = DOT applied that deals the incinerator damage for 3 seconds (does not stack), so to deal continous damage, you only need to hit the beast every 3 seconds

Could work vs sac rush maybe?! Especially if the DOT doesnt stack
Logged
Hakugei
XR Coder
Legendary Member
***
Posts: 3824



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2017, 03:51:56 am »

As far as I remember, I didn't find a stat for AoE in the game files so that's why I don't have it there.
Depends on which kind of AoE you're looking for.
objSet radius 0.000000 0.000000
objSet projectileScale 1.000000
objSet projectileRadius 0.000000
Logged
blame!
Newbie
*
Posts: 28



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2017, 10:40:36 pm »

While I agree that incinerator is totally ignored which is kind of sad, humans already have two similar spraying weapons in the form of flux and repeater. OK incinerator is different due it's spreading effect, but still, even with a damage/accuracy buff, I can't really see people using it unless it was just blatantly OP.

How about giving it a unique interaction? Keep the terrible accuracy but make it cause Sacrifice to go off earlier or, make it lethal against fire buffed targets. I'd love to see some interesting corner cases like that in Savage.



Logged

Ale
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 76



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2017, 06:20:10 am »

Different approach: Make it more effective vs buildings (similar to mortar weapon). Let the incinerator actually incinerate buildings by setting them on flames, dealing damage over time even after it stopped hitting.

AND/OR: let it incinerate units. So it'll still be easy to avoid being hit by an incinerator but once the flames caught you, you're on fire and lose hp for some time (similar to venomous).
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 06:29:51 am by Ale » Logged
lololol
Newerth Referees (EU)
Full Member
***
Posts: 151


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2017, 10:57:40 pm »

mine very old sugegstion about incenerator:
just make it stackable poisoning/burning effect.
poisoning like 3-5 seconds.   ShamanShield Beast Frenzy
Logged

UnSaFe
Lifetime fan of Crom
Newerth Donator
Hero Member
****
Posts: 828


ex-troll


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2017, 02:13:39 am »

Edited: Picture for clarity. Grammar.

The problem with incinerator is that it is impossible to effectively hit a target with it. And I don't mean a predator that is leaping around your back all the time with the intention of buttsex - try it with a moving monkit instead. Especially against one of those monkits that move sideways until they get in melee range of you, try shooting at it while you're standing still. I dare you to kill that monkit with incinerator before it gets close enough to punch you in the face. At most times it's even better to have the starting bow(or any other weapon for that matter) at any given point in the game. Incinerator doesn't really feel like a close-ranged AOE weapon - which it should be.

My suggestion is to slightly remake it:

Spoiler (Mouse-Over to read)

Totally not ms paint
Voila! More streams. Having 1 extra stream of fire might not be enough to have any noticeable impact, but 3 total might just do the trick. Having 3 total streams of flames will finally make it feel like a true close-ranged AOE weapon. It will finally be possible to actually hit something with it! It might even be too easy, so leaving it at that might be a bit overpowered as a free weapon. Therefore it can be nerfed in other areas so it can excel freely in close range:

- Make it so the damage from all three streams doesn't stack onto one target simultaneously. (Mandatory)
- Ammo nerf. (10-15% . We won't need as much ammo, since it is very close range and deals about the same damage as flux. Also free. )
- Slight projectile speed nerf. (might not need this depending on how it works live)


Making incinerator have more range and damage is the wrong approach, I think. Counting pure DPS, incinerator is about the same as flux. However, trying to make it similar to flux (more projectile speed, more range, more AOE, more DPS...etc.) would not solve the problem, it would just become a cheaper version of flux (that would probably be even better than flux itself).

Making incinerator have more unique characteristics as a weapon is a lot more desirable. Per the suggestion stated above, it would make incinerator a lot more powerful close range. How powerful? Quite a bit, but it would still be close range.
- Scattergun has it's place as a free low-mid ranged, high potential damage weapon that deals it's damage instantly and has a lot of AOE. However, it does less damage the farther away the target is, because of bullets scattering, reload.
- Discharger has it's place as a free mid ranged, mid-high potential damage weapon and deals it's damage instantly. However, it is a bit tricky to use, requires good aim, is single target, and deals no damage if the target is out of range, reload.

How I would like to see incinerator:

-Incinerator has it's place as a free low ranged, mid-high DPS weapon, deals it's damage continuously and has a lot of AOE. However, it's projectiles are slow, it has short range, low ammo(after ammo is nerfed by say 10%).

The thing is, you can buff incinerator AOE by adding more streams without the fear of it becoming overpowered. The projectiles travel relatively slowly (to your beast enemies), and you would still have to get really close to your target to dish out any damage at all. But if somebody wants to pick a fight with you in melee range (filthy stalkers *grr) you will have a fighting chance when the commander decides to rush chem. However, it will still be mostly ineffective as the game goes into it's later stages, but then again - free weapons shouldn't be your go-to choice after Tier 2.


« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 11:08:36 pm by UnSaFe » Logged

Bullet
Python enthusiast
Newerth Donator
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 348



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2017, 11:19:01 am »

 I like unsafe's suggestion.

Incinerator do indeed need improvement.
Logged

Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.028 seconds with 20 queries.