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Author Topic: Discuss: Various suggestions meant at improving the late game mining  (Read 3969 times)
Daemon
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« on: August 19, 2016, 08:43:02 pm »

Originally posted by: SavageBeard

I think a problem is that sometimes games become a stalemate due to no way to mine redstone efficiently, and people don't want to remote mine.

I suggest that we enable players to carry 150 redstone at level 6+.

This will benefit both teams, won't impact balance very much apart from letting games flow faster in times when it grinds to a halt.


I would also like to once again suggest a rebuildable/capturable garrison (I forgot which thread I put it in the first time). Essentially a "ruins", that can be rebuilt into a garr/sublair. When destroyed, it turns into a ruins again for either team to capture.

In additon I also think it's a huge problem that once you're out in the field, you're basically spent already, there is very little you can do to recover your resources, this coupled with often encountering the same enemy 1-3 times on your way to their spawn, means that games grind to a halt easily.

I suggest that the commanders can build stationary heal/speed/restock buffs on the ground (use the buff pool to do this). These would apply to any player (even enemies) and exist for about 2 minutes for anyone to pick up. The enemy can use them as well, and they can't be destroyed. For example, you walk across half the map as human, use all your medkits. Your commander drops a restock station next to you, and you can reload on your medkits. Or as beast, you're in human territory and damaged, your commander drops a heal station next to you, so you can hold the position without getting slowly grinded down by newbs. Or a speed boost to get your out from spawn faster.


It has probably been suggested before, but I would also like commander to be able to disable tech/spawning at points.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 08:45:32 pm by Daemon » Logged

Daemon
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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2016, 09:04:27 pm »

I think a problem is that sometimes games become a stalemate due to no way to mine redstone efficiently, and people don't want to remote mine.

While that's true, there are plenty of things that cause stalemates. People just like their whoring too much either way, and most everything one would do to threaten that status-quo will upset them...


I suggest that we enable players to carry 150 redstone at level 6+.

That's a bit extreme, both in terms of level and in terms of amount. Small steps is the keyword here and everywhere re-balancing is concerned. Better start with close to useless changes and work your way up by tweaking the numbers, than dropping a bomb that upsets everything.

So how about a goal of 100 stone carried at lvl9+?


I would also like to once again suggest a rebuildable/capturable garrison (I forgot which thread I put it in the first time). Essentially a "ruins", that can be rebuilt into a garr/sublair. When destroyed, it turns into a ruins again for either team to capture.

Well, you got flags which are capturable spawn points. Other than that, i don't think human tech and beast tech are interchangeable.

But to address your concern, how about adding some new functionality to the outpost/burrow buildings.
1. Making them drop-off points - while still preventing them from allowing spawning to and from anywhere else.
2. Giving them upgrades, like defense towers or the base buildings have. They could receive a lvl2 that would cost 750 rs to build, on top of the initial 500, but the pro's would be that you would be able to get a mining spot up and running in no time, then upgrade it to a garrison-like building at a cost that summs up to more than a regular garrison but less than making you more likely to build another garrison close to the outpost.

Example:
Hums get 2 nomads at a mine.
They build outpost.
Comm may begin producing workers there.
Nomads and workers mine 750 stone.
Comm begins upgrading the outpost to lvl2.

Basically, you would not risk 1000 stone on an attempt that will likely not pay off, and if things are alright after getting the outpost up, you can still get a garrison by upgrading. Since people hardly mine late game, you would not need to optimize for more than a couple builders anyway.

And if there are concerns that this would simply mirror the old garrison, then we can add some new functionality to the lvl2 outpost, like a ranged attack from their new towers, or a ladder so that a player can climb it and shoot from above, or some damage to enemies close to it and a ranged attack for the burrow.

In additon I also think it's a huge problem that once you're out in the field, you're basically spent already, there is very little you can do to recover your resources, this coupled with often encountering the same enemy 1-3 times on your way to their spawn, means that games grind to a halt easily.

I suggest that the commanders can build stationary heal/speed/restock buffs on the ground (use the buff pool to do this). These would apply to any player (even enemies) and exist for about 2 minutes for anyone to pick up. The enemy can use them as well, and they can't be destroyed. For example, you walk across half the map as human, use all your medkits. Your commander drops a restock station next to you, and you can reload on your medkits. Or as beast, you're in human territory and damaged, your commander drops a heal station next to you, so you can hold the position without getting slowly grinded down by newbs. Or a speed boost to get your out from spawn faster.

Well, that's exactly what the Guardian and the Transport are for. Did you try them out after the latest changes (in the last patch)? Please do and post some feedback. They're walking, talking resupply stations. That's not to say they can't be improved. Or their headcount raised.

It has probably been suggested before, but I would also like commander to be able to disable tech/spawning at points.

Spawn points locking/unlocking should already be functional.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 09:08:43 pm by Daemon » Logged

SavageBeard
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« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2016, 01:25:53 am »

Don't know how many people reach level 9, seems a bit high.

I like the outpost change you suggest, and it seems like a good idea. If the upgrade cost is too steep, people might simply sell it and build a real garrison there instead. I would say a 500 RS cost upgrade that adds a very beefy hp boost for humans as well as the ability to repair it faster (to account for the effects of a shield). For beast, a hp boost as well as a healing effect similar to what it would be like to have a healing spire on the burrow. In addition, workers should be able to take shelter inside the outpost/burrow to avoid getting killed (maybe limit this to 3 workers unupgraded and 5 workers upgraded).

But it's not really the same thing that I suggest. I mean a pre-plcaed building that will allow for teams to push for some sort of momentum even after the map has been cleared from redstone. This is to avoid the problem of walking across the entire map and meeting the same guy who spawned 3 times, which is the cause of many draws. It's not entirely the same with a flag, since the flag changes hands a lot faster, and you also often need to use siege to destroy a building. It would be fun to see how a building like that worked, but it would require that it is placed with care. I can imagine depending on where it's placed it can be overpowered especially in beast hands, since humans would rarely have a shield on such a building. So maybe a flag in a hard to reach spot is more fair in the end.

And the guardian thing, I have seen them used but they usually hang around sublairs, not very useful since if you're close to a sublair there's usually some faster way to do whatever you were using the guardian (heal/restore energy). I don't think I've seen anyone build the human equivalent. What I want is something akin to what a few maps have, where there are stations where you can heal up etc. Again, the example is when a player has to walk across the map and perhaps encounter the same guy 2-3 times due to the fast spawn times. It would be nice for the better player to have some stations to recover his health or items, instead of being grinded down. A commander could strategically place a few of these stations along a path as a way to refresh players, but they'd also be useable by the enemy.

Actually had no idea a commander could disable spawning at subs/garrs, haven't seen anyone use this. Are you sure this is in?  Afro

Something I would additionally want to suggest is kill reward, which is that the team that destroys an asset gets 50% of it's cost back in redstone (if it's sold you get 0.5*(hp/fullhp)*cost back). This will add more dynamic to the map and another fun way to gather redstone, destroying things. Could be less than 50% as well, as you say it is important to not make changes too drasatic at start.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 01:43:10 am by SavageBeard » Logged
Daemon
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« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2016, 03:29:43 pm »

I don't think I've seen anyone build the human equivalent.

Well try it already!
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« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2016, 11:18:49 am »

Basically, you would not risk 1000 stone on an attempt that will likely not pay off, and if things are alright after getting the outpost up, you can still get a garrison by upgrading. Since people hardly mine late game, you would not need to optimize for more than a couple builders anyway.

I like that!

Maybe also consider to make workers move a little bit faster to compensate for sometimes dumb waypointing behaviour. This is especially noticable on small paths where only 1 worker can pass at a time.
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« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2016, 11:59:59 am »

Lvl 6 and Lvl 9 are both too low nowadays considering the already high xp settings...
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« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2016, 08:44:46 am »

lvl 15 -100 redstone, lvl 25- 150 redstone. something like would be ok , but not as permanent rebalance.. it will need rediscussion after few month of expirience, because it is too unpredictable.
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Daemon
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« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2017, 07:31:08 pm »

This subject, along with every discussion since the 1st mass gameplay change campaign, is being reviewed.

For late game mining, there's 4 new mechanics that will be considered:
1. Raising the carried resources amount for units.
Lvl2: 50, Lvl6: 75, Lvl9: 100 seems a good starting point.

2. Making Guardian and Transports asymmetrical mining "carts".
Guardians would in fact be able to mine themselves to huge amounts (like... 500?) but then they'd have to return to a dropoff drop their stone.
Transports would be mobile dropoffs, where players can drop their own stone but in order for that stone to refill team pool, Transports would need to drop them at a regular dropoff point.

3. Mobile spawnpoints.
Each race is getting theirs, and slow ones at that. At this time, it's unclear exactly how they would act, i hope they end up asymmetrical too.
Variant 1: Both are regular spawn points, and you could go to and from anywhere, like normal garr/subs, normal dropoffs too.
Variant 2: Beast one is an exit point, like a slow moving flag, and human one is an APC, which you can enter and only spawn back where the APC is. They would both be "return to base" type of mining carts.

4. Outpost and Burrow are getting upgrades.
-They're getting garrison/sublair-like building upgrades version for 1000 stone, but for the stone they cost they get some bonuses. Outposts will probably get a weak shield-tower effect, and Burrow a weak healing-spire effect.
-In their unupgraded form, they would act as stone'gold dropoffs, but since they're cut off from the network, the resources they carry will only refill team pool when sold or upgraded.

5. Clemens has already coded the function to spawn an unbuilt, buildable building (excuse the repetition!) that could be used as rebuildable mining point.


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« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 09:07:56 am by Daemon » Logged

SavageBeard
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« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2017, 10:02:00 pm »

3. I would love for these to work like the boulders you push around with physics  ShamanShield

Also, a thought is that they obviously need to be somehow destroyable/disablable to be balanced, so how about if you destroy it, a new one can be purchased back at SH/Lair by the commander for either 50k gold or by some cooldown (point is - not redstone, because then it's pretty unlikely someone would build them).

I think mobile spawn points should overall be quite flimsy and easy to destroy, and both should be exit points only, to allow for a short cut across some terrian, or for the occasional sneak attack. If the beast one is exit and the human one is an APC, then it sounds to me that the beast one is good and the human one is not very useful, unless you can somehow lock your relocator to the APC.
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Daemon
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« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2017, 12:12:14 am »

3. I would love for these to work like the boulders you push around with physics  ShamanShield

Now there CAN be mobile spawn flags that can be carried in physics enabled maps.

Also, a thought is that they obviously need to be somehow destroyable/disablable to be balanced, so how about if you destroy it, a new one can be purchased back at SH/Lair by the commander for either 50k gold or by some cooldown (point is - not redstone, because then it's pretty unlikely someone would build them).

That's an interesting idea. Will think about it. Comms would only get to build one at any given time, in the first testing phase, anyway. Perhaps we could give it a huge build time to achieve that exact effect.

But they'd get built anyway. For once, you could get inside all sorts of places you couldn't otherwise. They can shorten remote mining time, frontline resupply times, they can help mine some rs mines when no resources or intentions are available towards building a spawnpoint.

I think mobile spawn points should overall be quite flimsy and easy to destroy, and both should be exit points only, to allow for a short cut across some terrian, or for the occasional sneak attack. If the beast one is exit and the human one is an APC, then it sounds to me that the beast one is good and the human one is not very useful, unless you can somehow lock your relocator to the APC.

This definitely needs testing and balancing! I was considering making the human APC really strong, so that humans could actually use it to push, or to bring ballis closer to the enemies undamaged. It would (maybe) make up for not being connected to the network. The fact that it also allows humans to go back in and rearm is a strong bonus versus beast's one way exit point.

All is up for discussion!
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« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2017, 06:38:57 pm »

I guess what I am getting at is that the options for how to spawn/creating spawn points is getting quite large, so if it's too redstone heavy, it will be hard to justify to use all of the options. If you have a limited budget, you're going to buy only the best thing, right? Also, not sure if it was discussed somewhere, but how about a kill reward, like 25% of redstone of the building cost awarded to the team that destroys a building (and also if it's sold below 50% health, to avoid enemy commander cheesing it and selling at 1%)
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Daemon
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« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2017, 08:16:35 pm »

I guess what I am getting at is that the options for how to spawn/creating spawn points is getting quite large, so if it's too redstone heavy, it will be hard to justify to use all of the options. If you have a limited budget, you're going to buy only the best thing, right?

Best for the situation at hand, best for your goal, etc.

Also, not sure if it was discussed somewhere, but how about a kill reward, like 25% of redstone of the building cost awarded to the team that destroys a building (and also if it's sold below 50% health, to avoid enemy commander cheesing it and selling at 1%)

Already in! Configurable, even. 25% was exactly the amount i thought of being appropriate.
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