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Author Topic: Map exploits that need fixing  (Read 1612 times)
KingKong_
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« on: August 11, 2016, 03:43:18 pm »

Didn't see a thread like this, and don't think every exploit is worth it's own thread. So post exploits here.

xr_autopuchi3t: Team 1 garrison shield can be cata exploited, there's a mountain that lacks invisible blocker and cata can reach it with angling. Team 1 base was just killed like that.
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SOMA
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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2016, 03:50:27 pm »

many of map design have the same problem, that cata can hit sub like this way... same like Nohope map. Angry

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KingKong_
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2016, 04:04:15 pm »

Those are very quick and easy to fix though, by placing blockers on top of mountains. Well, the map editor side of it is quick and easy. Newerth's permission system is what makes it too slow and bothersome to trouble with.
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-LioN-
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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2016, 09:33:00 pm »

map admins like me fix these easily. I'm just so inactive  Undecided
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SOMA
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« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2016, 09:55:46 pm »

map admins like me fix these easily. I'm just so inactive  Undecided

 Cry
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SavageBeard
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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2016, 12:34:39 pm »

I would say the issue is not as clear cut as it seems,

Are you allowed to alter someone else's work? The map maker might not share your view on how the map should be altered, in which case you did something wrong. Invisible blockers are a very minor edit, that can easily be reversed, so I suppose it's OK.

What exactly should be fixed? There are many other ways to cheat in a map, exploit garr/sub, climbing the border of the map, to name a few. These can have the same devastating effect on a game, but are much harder to fix. There are also countless maps in the database, some of which are only played once in a blue moon.

Who should do it? Exploits in a map could be considered a part of the map design. Is it the job of the map admin to fix it? Other map design problems, such as too much redstone, choke points, bad textures, ugly terrain, occluders, etc are not really something that a map admin will fix.

I would say that these issues should be first and foremost be adressed to the original map maker and be dealt with by refs on the server as the game is live. If it's a glaring exploit on a popular map that keeps being abused, then invisible blockers might be an OK alternative, but if someone sets their mind to it, they're probably going to find some other way to exploit. Map admins can assist to coach map makers as they create something, but it's beyond the scope of the assignment to clean up broken maps, they can also fix more obvious technical errors in maps, which there are very few of to my knowledge.
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KingKong_
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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2016, 06:04:10 pm »


Are you allowed to alter someone else's work?

I assume so since it's so commonly done here. And it's done for much lesser reasons than fixing broken maps. Since it's done for the lesser reasons, it is not an argument against fixing maps. Anyway, this is something that can and should be addressed in the terms one accepts when uploading a map.

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The map maker might not share your view on how the map should be altered, in which case you did something wrong.

We're not talking about changing or balancing maps here. Only about fixing obvious exploits, which are almost always an oversight and never a design choice. In the hypothetical case where fixing an obvious exploit violates the map makers vision, the map maker should have the right to have their map offlined instead.

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What exactly should be fixed?

Obvious and easy to fix exploits. In other words, catas over map limits and players walking on map limits.

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Who should do it?

Preferably the map author. But also you, me, map admins. Anyone that can be bothered.

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Exploits in a map could be considered a part of the map design. Is it the job of the map admin to fix it?

You've played this game long enough to know actual oversight exploits from intentional map design. If a map author intentionally leaves something in the map that people get kicked and slain over in the servers, the map doesn't belong online in the first place.

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Other map design problems, such as too much redstone, choke points, bad textures, ugly terrain, occluders, etc

Have nothing to do with exploits and don't belong in this thread. Though I would add bad occluding as something that can be fixed. But map admins are pretty good at catching bad occluding in the final check so this is not a real problem.

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I would say that these issues should be first and foremost be adressed to the original map maker

This we can agree on. But in many cases the original map maker is not around anymore. If it's ok to make make altered versions of the map (and the servers are full of these) I don't see why it wouldn't be ok to fix the map and leave the credit to the original map maker.


I get your point that a map author's rights and vision should be respected. But so should the people who actually still play the game. Often abused exploits on popular maps are a major detriment to the dwindling player bases enjoyment of the game. Fixing them requires minimal effort in the map editor, and it requires no further violation of map author's rights than what is already done by allowing retextured and slightly altered versions of existing maps. Currently the approved way of fixing a broken map is adding xr_ to the name and retexturing it, and taking credit away from the original author. I'd say simply fixing the original and leaving the credit where it's due is certainly not worse.
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SavageBeard
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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2016, 07:14:17 pm »

What I mean by being a part of the map design is that exploitable elements are often a byproduct of a poorly made map, and you could argue that it's not the job of a map admin to fix a poorly made map into a good map.

Poorly made maps in general are a detriment to the game, a lot of maps should be throughly revised on all fronts or taken offline, and focusing on fixing a particular type of error in map design which this cata exploit is, is missing the broader picture. Im no fan of puchi3t myself, in my view fixing exploits in such map is like complaining about the flies on a big steaming pile of crap.


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Preferably the map author. But also you, me, map admins. Anyone that can be bothered

Agree with this quote, it is quite easy to make the changes, anyone is welcome to do it if it's something minor like adding invisible blockers. If you're not a map admin I think you can upload a map file to the forums, then an admin can swap it out for you.

On the topic of xr_ remakes, I'm not a big fan myself. I think they should be held to a much higher standard than other maps and bring something new to the table. Sadly this hasn't always been the case, and remakes many times look worse or add nothing new to the gameplay. But there are also examples where remakes are pretty nice. Though I don't think a lot of remakes have been made only to fix exploits?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 07:22:00 pm by SavageBeard » Logged
Necrophiliac
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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2016, 11:36:18 am »

I'll try fix a couple if people post the map and spot in which the exploit can occur. Try and provide screenshot too  Rolleyes
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