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Author Topic: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma  (Read 8687 times)
Bullet
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« on: October 23, 2014, 02:49:23 pm »

Hello everyone. This will be a quite long post, so bear with me, or just skip to the bottom if you're lazy. What make me write this post i i just got kicked without valid reason at all, from Groentjuh's server.

I have trouble seeing how the culture in the community have evolved on the Europe server lately. I see certain players talk alot of "shit" and people are beeing relatively free-spoken, without refs doing anything about it.

A typical conversation in chat can be like:
X: Shut up motherfucker!
Y: you crying?
Z: x, you're a retard. 
X: Go suck a cock, z.

... And the ref wont do anything, not a single warning to anyone of them to calm down and talk more friendly, or a warning about "mute".
Of course, this is situation related, and sometimes the ref might have a point, explaining his lack of action with: "It just lasts 2 minutes, then everyon's forgotten about it".
Sometimes conversations like these happens for fun, like A: "hey dude, did you blow x' mom earlier?" and Z might say: "Nah, she wasn't hot enough". And x is like " you woulnd't even get close her". The last example can be considered joking, but refs must be aware that verbal communication on the internett can be mis-interpreted, and what was a joke, is not funny and vice versa.  If someone yells "Hey, thats an insult", refs SHOULD REACT.   I see refs that doesn't do that, refs that barely chat at all, and doesn't use the power they have enough.

I think it's fair to say that a good ref isn't only a judge, but also someone who have the responsible attitude towards the gaming community in this game. Do you wanna be the ref, allowing "tricky sitations", to just pass by, without doing anything? In my opinion, that's a passive ref, and in one way, a bad ref. Take a minute to think about it.

I also fear that the in-game community on the Europe server might be affected by the attitude of the american attitude on Leet. No offense to the american players who are fair and seem like grown-up people, but there is some immature players among you which I will consider rotten fruit in a gaming culture. On the otherside however, Savage has a small playerbase an we need everyone to keep this game we all love, alive.

Today i joined a game on the map xr_quests which many players have a hate/love attitude towards. 2 players in particular, with the support of a guy with a demo icon (his name was "/name") was in T2, and exploited heavely with a exploit sub, and eventually captured  both flags (shouldn't be possible), and won the game. During this event, both me and several in T1 protested heavely, and tried to kick "Captain Kenway" (encouraged exploiting, calling me cunt in chat and so on ..) and the comm of t2, "xr_firsttimeplayer (unique)".  Due to the many restarts earlier on this map, it was implicitly understood that only arsenal/nexus exploit should be allowed (we had mentioned it many times in chat, and many agreed). However, T2 exploited heavely and won the game.
Now we get to the core problem "team-exploit-dilemma" : When T1 tried to kick a t2 player, of course the whole t2  f2. There's no appliable punishment for a whole team that exploits, and when no ref is on spot, there is noone to give warnings or kick/slay people that dont follow rules. That game ruined  the fun for T1, and we didn't have any power to stop it.  At the end, when we came to the awards, Gridfon (ref) came on. Ofcourse we told him about what happened, but he wouldn't take a stand against any of it and did nothing against t2 comm. 
Now, that's a dilemma. The questions is : How can you encourage people to play fair, without the ref beeing there? 

The problem is divided in my opinion, first off all,  the refs must be more consistent when he is present (dunno if it's the right word for it), and more direct towards players that behave "on the limit". With a playerbase that grows smaller over the years, we must try to remain the good, grown-up, newbie friendly culture among player in-game. However, a smaller playerbase means more "small-games" with 15 v 15 on the server, and more tolerance towards diffent people, as we have to play with the same guys over and over, game after game. Gridfon (ref) told me today in a /msg: "Dont feed the trolls...". That's a quote that tells quite a lot about the culture ingame today, in Savage.

I think it's time for a cleanup, and send big, fat warning towards the trolls that you ruin other peoples fun. Because decent, and grown-up players will quit playing this game if people cant behave in-game.

I want, since we cant kick them (IP-change someway, another account), some sort of publication of those players. Players in the publication can ofcourse not just be written up there. Proof must be shown, and approved by refs reading the forum or admins on this page (?). The only thing that comes to my mind is a hall-of-loosers.

Second, people should be encouraged some way be more friendly in-game, independet if ref is present or not. How this can be achived and  encouraged, is a question I dont know the answer to, but suggestions are appreciated. What I do know, is that we need it.

Note: I was very pissed when I wrote this post, none the less, it doesn't make me wrong in my cause.

And to Amy (the former mapadming who lost her right, yes I have to mention that because i'm angry) , if you ever read this - You dont kick me again for joining specs, not a very valid kick. I expected better attitude than that from you.



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Moxy
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2014, 04:00:12 pm »

I Hope you realize for the past month, there has been no refs full stop for the European server due to the security risks with accounts.

Infact even now, there is only 3, Myself and DRK and grifdon

Due to the security issues with the accounts we couldn't risk handing out ref pwd's.

Things are starting to change now and refs are slowly starting to come back but until this sunday just gone, there had been no refs full stop. no one to police the server. pleas bear that in mind when saying that refs just ignore people like you describe. unfortunately we hadn't had the power to deal with those type of people. the majority of refs still don't.

The refs are slowly starting to come back now so you should start to notice a difference but it will take time to sort all accounts out.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 09:21:40 pm by Moxy » Logged

Hakugei
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2014, 04:22:41 pm »

So US refs overreact and EU refs underact?
As I keep saying, humans can't handle responsibility.
Humans make bad refs and bad admins.

I want, since we cant kick them (IP-change someway, another account), some sort of publication of those players. Players in the publication can ofcourse not just be written up there. Proof must be shown, and approved by refs reading the forum or admins on this page (?). The only thing that comes to my mind is a hall-of-loosers.
What would be the point? While there hasn't been an official list, gossip and rumor has spread just like in any other society so certain undesirables are known (e.g. Mein, Rin, Jmz, etc...the "list" can get quite long, especially if you count inactive players, too). But what does this list actually accomplish? They still get to play, and they still get to do their shenanigans until caught in the act all over again. Just to shame them? No worries; they constantly shame themselves already. Grin

Second, people should be encouraged some way be more friendly in-game, independet if ref is present or not. How this can be achived and  encouraged, is a question I dont know the answer to, but suggestions are appreciated. What I do know, is that we need it.
That is true for every and all communities, real life and virtual.
The problem here is that humans are pathetic creatures. Wink There is no real way to force them to be nice.
And bad behavior is a lot more contagious than good behavior, simply because the human mind and human selfish mindset is a lot more responsive to negative influences.
If you do figure out a way to, I suggest you patent the idea and sell it to every online game ever made - you'll be rich!



Also, keep in mind, a ref cannot punish someone for something that they were not around for.
If no ref was present, you'll need to contact the server admin and report the ongoing to him directly to take disciplinary action.
(Okay, I'm talking about the EU server, because we all know Jmz won't do a thing for the US server unless he has something to gain.)
Refs for immediate action; server admin for post- and long-term action.
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Captain Kenway
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2014, 04:58:53 pm »

What are you Kaizer, 12 year old? You shouldnt even  be playing a PEGI 18 game, for all the violence, bad manners and sexual themes.

You need to sit down and chillax, Games are for entertainment, to have fun, not for kids like you to cramp up and make a drama and attention search.

Be a good LAD, and ease the fok in mate.

with love from
aboard the pirateship
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Amy
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2014, 05:08:35 pm »

I assure you that the one who kicked you wasn't me, someone else knows my pw and i sent a pm to groent about this a week ago, but he didn't reply Sad
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2014, 05:41:47 pm »

What are you Kaizer, 12 year old? You shouldnt even  be playing a PEGI 18 game, for all the violence, bad manners and sexual themes.

Those ratings are for the game, not for the players.
And adult ratings do not justify bad behavior. At all.
(Also, I don't think Savage has an 18 age rating. Grin Not enough sex.)
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Bullet
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« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2014, 05:44:39 pm »

I Hope you realize for the past month, there has been no refs full stop for the European server due to the security risks with accounts.

Things are starting to change now and refs are slowly starting to come back but until this sunday just gone, there had been no refs full stop. no one to police the server. pleas bear that in mind when saying that refs just ignore people like you describe. unfortunately we hadn't had the power to deal with those type of people. the majority of refs still don't. (e.g Grifdon)

Thx for fast answer. I know that, and that might explain how it have became so bad so fast. It proves that refs are important today. Hopefully more refs will be more online soon.

So US refs overreact and EU refs underact?
I didn't say that, but yes, thats the logical interpretation of it. EU refs are used to good behavioer among players, but US refs I don't have much personal knowledge about, I don't know how they behave when trolls invade the game.

What would be the point? While there hasn't been an official list, gossip and rumor has spread just like in any other society so certain undesirables are known (e.g. Mein, Rin, Jmz, etc...the "list" can get quite long, especially if you count inactive players, too). But what does this list actually accomplish? They still get to play, and they still get to do their shenanigans until caught in the act all over again. Just to shame them? No worries; they constantly shame themselves already. Grin
There's not a thing we can do to prevent kids/trolls/immature people from playing, for some ammount of time, i.e 3 days, a week, a month ?

The problem here is that humans are pathetic creatures. Wink There is no real way to force them to be nice.
Shouldn't prevent the "good" community from trying to allways achieve a good community. We should have a fairlpay award ingame... some sort of.

Also, keep in mind, a ref cannot punish someone for something that they were not around for.
If no ref was present, you'll need to contact the server admin and report the ongoing to him directly to take disciplinary action.
Refs for immediate action; server admin for post- and long-term action.

Yes, I'm aware of that. That's a weakness, but a principle I understand, you cant judge something you haven't seen. Should be made possible for refs to see chat-log from last round while ingame, in my opinion. Demo-file could also be possible, but not a ref in the world would take the time to go out of game just to see a dispute between 2 guys 5 or 1 games ago, no matter the size of the dispute.

What are you Kaizer, 12 year old? You shouldnt even  be playing a PEGI 18 game, for all the violence, bad manners and sexual themes.
I hate to ruin your brilliant arguments Tushaar, but Savage is actually rated for 12-year olds.  (http://goo.gl/hee4ro)

On topic for you tushaar, if you change behaviour in-game, we might be able to play with each other with a friendly tone. But you don't earn my respect by exploiting and ruining for a whole team's fun. Also, calling people "cunt" (among other things) doesn't exactly encourage friendly replies from other people. Take a minute to think how people percieve you as a player in-game, and I might consider talking to you again. Till then, avoid me.

I assure you that the one who kicked you wasn't me, someone else knows my pw and i sent a pm to groent about this a week ago, but he didn't reply Sad
Yes, I couldn't possibly know that when i wrote the post. Thanks for informing, though Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2014, 06:15:35 am »

You'll often see a lot of inaction or overaction from refs on US simply because it's a very "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of attitude towards refs there. I once joined mid game and was bombarded by several people asking me to kick someone who exploited before I got there. I told them that I couldn't kick someone for something I didn't see and half the server agreed and the other half thought I was the worst ref ever. That's pretty much how most situations end up (outside of clear cut mutes/kicks). You're never going to have 100% of people agree with you and the side that doesn't agree has a decent chance of harassing the ref that chose to act/not act. The monkeys are going to throw shit at each other, I see no reason to stand up and say "Hey, you didn't get any on me yet."

Also, as far as policing people's language, I can't believe I have to say this but: It's the internet. Words can't hurt you. There's no such thing as "bad words" unless you let them bother you.  Yeah, if someone is targeting someone for verbal harassment, that's worthy of a mute (since no one knows how to use /ignore), but otherwise there's no reason why refs should have to be Profanity Police.
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Hakugei
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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2014, 08:05:31 am »

[...] "damned if you do, damned if you don't" [...] You're never going to have 100% of people agree with you and the side that doesn't agree has a decent chance of harassing the ref that chose to act/not act.
Ref-ing should never be about this.
If you're influenced, at all, by someone disliking or disagreeing, you shouldn't be a ref.
This counts for every position of authority and responsibility.

"There will always be someone disagreeing" and "Damned if I do, damned if I don't" are poor excuses used to justify bad decisions, and entirely irrelevant for your responsibility and actions.
Because at the end of the day, you should be able to make a clever decision based on reasoning alone.

If it's too much for someone to handle, simply resign and walk away.
A bad ref is not better than no ref; and there won't be a potentially better replacement if the ref slot(s) are filled.
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« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2014, 02:23:34 pm »

If you're influenced, at all, by someone disliking or disagreeing, you shouldn't be a ref.
This counts for every position of authority and responsibility.

You take this shit too seriously man. It's a volunteer position in a mostly dead game.  I'm not going to give the children that make up the community an excuse to flip their shit if action doesn't need to be taken and 9/10, it doesn't.  Though I will admit, watching people lose their minds over a mute or a kick is highly entertaining.

"There will always be someone disagreeing" and "Damned if I do, damned if I don't" are poor excuses used to justify bad decisions, and entirely irrelevant for your responsibility and actions.
Because at the end of the day, you should be able to make a clever decision based on reasoning alone.

If it's too much for someone to handle, simply resign and walk away.
A bad ref is not better than no ref; and there won't be a potentially better replacement if the ref slot(s) are filled.

Again, you talk about reffing Savage like it's a super important, high risk, paid authoritative position. It's not. A ref is not a babysitter which is really what most of the people in the community need.

And as far as "a bad ref is better than no ref"...oh boy, you don't know how wrong you are.  You should have played on the US server when WD was ref haha.
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Hakugei
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« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2014, 03:16:56 pm »

Thank you for proving my point.
You don't take it serious enough. Grin
You don't understand that precisely because it is an undead game you need to put in more effort to not make it worse.
You may notice that the US server has fewer players than ever - the shenanigans and abuse of US refs and US server admin have finally caught up with you.
You can try hiding your incompetence and ignorance behind clichès like "chill, man, it's just a (dead) game", but it doesn't change any of the facts you so desperately wish to ignore.
Volunteer position does not equate to consequence-less justified abuse for own personal gain.
The only reason so many abusive US refs still have their position is because the server admin himself abuses whatever he can get his hands on - expecting him to clean up his ref team would be nonsensical foolery.

I've been on the US server as no refs were around (a few weeks ago; more than once); it was a peaceful and pleasant experience.
However, the days before and after that were a Nightmare (oh, suddenly your nickname makes sense) thanks to refs.

Humans are not capable of handling responsibility, and would much rather hide behind excuses and ignorance than face the nightmarish truth head-on. You are certainly no exception.

Now, if you have nothing intelligent to say, please stop trying to make excuses - it's disgusting.
It's not even clear if you even understand these basic principles in the first place, or just choose to ignore them out of convenience.
Thank you.
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Mr_Matt
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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2014, 11:03:21 am »

some people like the drama, why punish minor verbal problems on an already small player base
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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2014, 09:08:19 pm »

some people like the drama, why punish minor verbal problems on an already small player base

Agreed mate Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2014, 01:49:24 am »

You can try hiding your incompetence and ignorance (...) the server admin himself abuses whatever he can get his hands on (...)
Humans are not capable of handling responsibility, and would much rather hide behind excuses and ignorance than face the nightmarish truth head-on. You are certainly no exception (...) stop trying to make excuses - it's disgusting.

How the heck is this guy still an admin?

However I completely agree with Bullet about the bad chat culture on our servers. It's worse than the Youtube comment section (!). Unfortunately I don't think refs can change that because as Nightmare already pointed out, every ref action will cause more discussing and drama. If you wanne do something against all the brainless hate and contempt in this game, you got two options:

Talk back, start discussing with them and reveal their studpidity to everyone (and maybe it will lead to a successful kick or mute vote)
or
leave the game and let it die (no game, no chat, no hate).

« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 01:51:09 am by Ale » Logged
Gridfon
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« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2014, 05:21:28 am »

How the heck is this guy still an admin?

It might not be clearly visible from outside of the admin/development team, but Hakugei has done a huge amount of work on Savage over the past couple of months. Usually those are the things that no other admins or developers have skills, time or motivation to do. And ironically, that accounts for the most things that have to be done.

Hakugei was promoted to admin in order to sort out the mess caused by JmZ's script, and to make sure that a situation like this is unlikely to happen again. His promotion is backed by all other admins. However, I'm pretty sure he'll resign from being an admin again very soon, if not quit the development team altogether.

All in all, it would be more constructive to try and convince Hakugei to accept more power and do more things, rather than try to get rid of him. More things will get accomplished this way.  Afro
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 06:25:50 am by Gridfon » Logged
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