Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 20, 2018, 06:38:03 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Savage: XR is a new patch for Savage, created by the Newerth.com staff. The XR1.1 Client is out now! Download it now!
188984 Posts in 10936 Topics by 18014 Members
Latest Member: Edson Maes
* Home Forum Wiki Help Search Login Register
+  Newerth Forums
|-+  Savage XR
| |-+  Re-balancing Suggestions
| | |-+  2nd generation changes
| | | |-+  Discuss: Goodie Drops
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Discuss: Goodie Drops  (Read 10393 times)
Daemon
XR Main Developer
Legendary Member
****
Posts: 4763


beware, for this is the everbroken...


View Profile
« on: October 12, 2014, 08:11:10 pm »

2nd Generation re-balancing discussions are not meant to result in simple suggestions that merely tweak or change one isolated aspect of the game. Please take into account the overall effect on the game, the stats showing 38% more beast wins, the 1st generation gameplay changes and the need to make as few subsequent changes to compensate as possible.

At the time this post is being written, there has been a widespread acceptance of the new changes and there's actually little, if any, ingame talks about them at all! So don't go proclaiming "this and that will kill the game!" because previous changes obviously didn't. This may be a testimony to the care that's been given to choose small incremental steps over radical changes. Regardless what a few haters, like djinghis, proclaim. They should read the 1st gen threads too.



1st Gen changes:
* Mana Crystal, while still slowly recharging mana when carried, became a consumable. It can be thrown like disruptors, it breaks on impact and produces 3 pickable mana crystal goodies (45 mana refill).
* Players carrying Ammo Pack now refill ammo over the 50% limit when picking up ammo boxes.
* 2 new types of goodie drops from killed units: 10% HP for humans, and 20% Stamina for beasts.
* Ejecting from a siege unit (cata/balli) drops gold for the other team (or the last attacker).
* Siege units killing foot soldiers does not produce goodiebag drops any longer.

2nd Gen Suggestions:
1. Extra Drops (stamina crystal and health potion) should have increased refill bonuses, making them worth the trouble of getting in the heat of the battle.
2. Ammo pack becomes droppable. Initially suggested for Chaplains only, in order to boost their support value by carrying extra ammo to fighters. Initial suggestion: the ammo boxes produced should return the rounded value of the unused ammo.
3. Remove the gold bags that drop from buildings. They are only worth like 1-10 gold pieces.

Next, i will list other possible changes as identified by me or raised by others (f.i. ingame lazies). Please mark yours properly for me to see if you want to add more.

Other suggestions:
A. Greatly increase the amount of gold contained in the bag that drops when you kill a building.
B. Produce a pickable redstone drop whenever a building is destroyed by the enemy (50stone?).
C. Have workers be able to pick up gold bags.

Each and every one of them has advantages and drawbacks, while some may prove hard to implement. Please discuss and remember: YOU HAVE TO MAKE A GOOD CASE FOR WHATEVER YOU'RE TRYING TO CONVINCE US OF!
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 08:29:09 pm by Daemon » Logged

blackdeath
Newbie
*
Posts: 33



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2014, 03:15:36 pm »

Hello Savages

Perhaps some accountability with red stone i.e workers that are killed drop the current stone they have in the form of red crystals. This, yes, I admit is minimal, as the most you could collect is 50 or your team 400 as a maximum of 10 worker fully loaded with crystal kills and enough players to carry it. Although over the course of the game, a lot of stone could be obtained for the skilled 'downsizer(s)'.

perks
   *More stone (longer interesting games)
   *Rewarding Downsizers (promote smart play)
   *Additional items to collect (visually appealing)
   *More hope for commanders (micro-management)
   *Provides a unique method of gifting the opposing teams commander stone (in a roundabout way), for those friendly one on one or low player games where you had a head start or are teaching a new commander etc.

flaws
   *More stone (longer boring games)
   *Rewarding Downsizers (promote cheap play)
   *Additional items to collect (more active objects to lag the server)


Although the perks are almost on par with flaws, this could liven things up if anything and place a greater value on workers for commanders to consider.

Additionally I feel that the stone should initially belong (ownership) to the killer and subsequently after the normal time (2 seconds?) be available for pick-up by the allied team. Perhaps after 6 seconds available to "all" ?

Also for such a valued commodity Id suggest that its lifetime be twice as long as mana/stamina potion crystal etc.

Thanks for your time.
Logged
Daemon
XR Main Developer
Legendary Member
****
Posts: 4763


beware, for this is the everbroken...


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2014, 06:26:27 pm »

It is an interesting idea and we've discussed both the gameplay implications and the technical aspects of the implementation and the version we're comfortable with is this:

1 redstone drop would hold 25 stone
goodies last and behave like any drop (killer+team reward)
stone needs to be dropped at spawnpoints

25 redstone drop reward for workers
25 redstone reward for towers/spires
50 redstone reward for other buildings (2x drops)

No point in dropping more than 50 since players can't carry more. Workers dropping 50 would mean they literally are worth their weight in stone and that's OP. Making drops permanent or lasting a different length of time than the other drops AND making them pickable by any race is too upsetting for the code and it would take considerable effort and unknown risks or side effects.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 06:33:24 pm by Daemon » Logged

Nanaa
Newerth Donator
Hero Member
****
Posts: 652



View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2014, 09:12:21 pm »

Suggestion: Kongor's Hearth

Killing a kongor would drop a special goodie called Kongor's Hearth. It would last and behave like any drop (killer/ally pickable).

Why? Kongors are very tough npcs but only reward you with around 10k gold. Adding this special drop would make slaying them more interesting.

Effects:

* +33,3% to hitpoints (example: lvl 9+ predator would have 826 hp)
* +200% to natural hitpoint regeneration (example: for non-siege units 2 hp/5 secs becomes 6 hp/5 secs)
* a visual aura surrounds your unit notifying friends and foes of your active effects

Effects only apply to your current life/unit. Effects disappear the moment you die or when you change your unit. Reviving doesn't help you regain the effects.

Notes:

*Maybe the goodie shouldn't be applicable to siege units. Firstly, human sieges are machines so consuming a hearth to increase their durability doesn't make sense. Secondly, the effects seem to be more beneficial to beast sieges since they already have generally better survivability and unlimited ammo.

*Drop rate could be set to 50% since there are some maps with multiple kongors. Afaik kongors don't respawn in XR. The old rock-throwing kongors respawned once.

*Maybe add an announcer voice "Kongor has been slain" like in HoN, or just an announcement in chat and a sound notifier.
Logged
Daemon
XR Main Developer
Legendary Member
****
Posts: 4763


beware, for this is the everbroken...


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2014, 09:20:05 pm »

That is nice, but generally, beasts get to Kongors faster than humans. Not that a single buffed unit would make that much of a difference but it seems like a general opinion that this sort of "runes" suck in MOBA games.

I agree that Kongor should give something interesting like that, though.

[edit]As i said ingame, would be cool for Kongor to drop an item with some perks that remain to be determined, that you drop when you die, and it can be picked up by someone else and so on.[/edit]
« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 09:30:02 pm by Daemon » Logged

Nanaa
Newerth Donator
Hero Member
****
Posts: 652



View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2014, 09:49:10 pm »

I like your version more. Trying to figure out good and simple perks now.
Logged
blackdeath
Newbie
*
Posts: 33



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2014, 01:45:59 am »

It is an interesting idea and we've discussed both the gameplay implications and the technical aspects of the implementation and the version we're comfortable with is this:

1 redstone drop would hold 25 stone
goodies last and behave like any drop (killer+team reward)
stone needs to be dropped at spawnpoints

25 redstone drop reward for workers
25 redstone reward for towers/spires
50 redstone reward for other buildings (2x drops)

No point in dropping more than 50 since players can't carry more. Workers dropping 50 would mean they literally are worth their weight in stone and that's OP. Making drops permanent or lasting a different length of time than the other drops AND making them pickable by any race is too upsetting for the code and it would take considerable effort and unknown risks or side effects.

Hello savages

I actually was thinking something more subtle than a definite stone drop from every worker every time it dies. I think that the amount of crystals from sac'ing or mass killing of say even 5 workers would produce too much clutter not forgetting the other simultaneous drop offs of mana and stamina.

Isn't it technically possible to drop the resources that the worker is actually carrying? so that at least a commander can drop off the stone before they are about to die. having workers around to act as sentries or standbys I feel is important, and to have a definite reward in addition to gold will pressure commanders to kill workers after they perform duties to avoid the other team getting ahead on stone.

Perhaps keep reclamation as the only form of obtaining stone i.e commanders demolishing buildings, and "accountable" stone (the stone in the workers sacs) obtainable. I think destruction/killing of buildings/workers should not "produce" red stone or gold - my suggestion remains the obtain-ability of existing stone not "production".
Further - Should buildings that have been built (smelted/cut/trimmed/refined) produce the "raw" resource of red stone crystals upon death?

Thanks for your time.
Logged
Daemon
XR Main Developer
Legendary Member
****
Posts: 4763


beware, for this is the everbroken...


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2014, 08:18:27 am »

Hello blackdeath.

The game promotes the concept of "reward" more than "recovery" of used materiales. After all, you don't hang a summoner by his legs and start shaking vigorously so his pockets empty their gold contents after you killed him. Nor does he carry a bunch of missiles humans can then pick-up and use. So we can suspend our disbelief in this case.

In theory, yes, we can drop stone according to how much the worker carries but if that's the case, the change is marginal at best. How many times, over the course of a game, workers are killed on their way back from the mine, and the small amount of stone picked this way (1,2, 5 loads? - 100-200 stone) would not make much of a difference that would be worth implementing this new feature.
Logged

blackdeath
Newbie
*
Posts: 33



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2014, 12:59:58 pm »

I withdraw my suggestion
Logged
Vectile
If you call one wolf, you invite the pack!
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 69



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2015, 01:48:15 pm »

Have posted before in other discussions:

Just a suggestion to stop the loss of games through early map control Just Mining Da Stone
If a T2 worker is collecting Red-stone and a T1 player kills the worker carrying the Red-stone to the Lair or Sub then the Red-stone could be droppable for T1 to pick up like Gold or Health ?

Would make early invades more common and stop complete halts to the game when a commander didn't mean to use so much Red-stone and cant access a mine ?!  Knuppel Just Mining Da Stone
Logged
Vectile
If you call one wolf, you invite the pack!
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 69



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2015, 03:09:06 pm »



In theory, yes, we can drop stone according to how much the worker carries but if that's the case, the change is marginal at best. How many times, over the course of a game, workers are killed on their way back from the mine, and the small amount of stone picked this way (1,2, 5 loads? - 100-200 stone) would not make much of a difference that would be worth implementing this new feature.


 Lets say you need 100 redstone for this new hidden garrison that can win you the game ? Send a small group players to go and kill a few workers and you can then back door ?!

Or even at the beginning of the game the 1/2 guys that usually scout now have a really reason too, other that look what the enemy are rushing and where their subs are ?! Smiley Grabbing an extra 200/300 Redstone makes a nice enough difference to make the game more versatile  but not make 10 man rushes OP xD

If the worker is carrying 20 Redstone then drop 50% or 75% ?

Logged
jazzking
Melee enthusiast
Newerth Shoutcaster
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 687


Duels Duels Duels


View Profile WWW
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2015, 05:22:33 pm »

I thought this helped in the situation where all your workers are killed when you have, say, 45 minerals. The difference in economy pickup between 0 workers and 150 minerals and 0 workers and 45 minerals is probably 1 or 2 minutes, which is a lot and could lead to lost games. Then again it's good that you are punished for losing workers.  Getting defensive structures, and maybe even leaving a mineral cushion for worker losses, is part if the game.
Logged

Tjens
I make maps and stuff
XR Map Administrator
Super Hero Member
***
Posts: 1958


GIFMEISTER


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2016, 01:26:01 pm »

2nd Gen Suggestions:
1. Extra Drops (stamina crystal and health potion) should have increased refill bonuses, making them worth the trouble of getting in the heat of the battle.
2. Ammo pack becomes droppable. Initially suggested for Chaplains only, in order to boost their support value by carrying extra ammo to fighters. Initial suggestion: the ammo boxes produced should return the rounded value of the unused ammo.
3. Remove the gold bags that drop from buildings. They are only worth like 1-10 gold pieces.

Next, i will list other possible changes as identified by me or raised by others (f.i. ingame lazies). Please mark yours properly for me to see if you want to add more.

Other suggestions:
A. Greatly increase the amount of gold contained in the bag that drops when you kill a building.
B. Produce a pickable redstone drop whenever a building is destroyed by the enemy (50stone?).
C. Have workers be able to pick up gold bags.

1. Extra Drops (stamina crystal and health potion) should have increased refill bonuses.
Great idea, what about 2x the values they have now? This would mean Healthdrops would increase from 10 to 20% and stamina from 20 to 40%. Maybe in the futute those numbers could be tweaked to 25 and 50 respectively, depending on the outcome and feedback from implenting the first number change. As they are now, health and stam goodies are hardly worthwile picking up even when they're right in front of you.

As a side effect the medikit and ammo drops from the balloon guy suddenly become worthwhile!

2. Ammo pack becomes droppable.
Also really good! Makes you want to think in a team spirit when someone else needs ammo and you got some to spare. Makes sticking together more rewarding and worthwhile. Fighters won't have to reloc home as soon as they're out of ammo. Also helps making chaps more worthwhile pushing since they can carry that extra ammo (directly solves some points discussed in the chaplain topic!) The only question is how to make sharing eazy without giving up your own ammo? Maybe only drop half of your leftover ammo?

3. Remove the gold bags that drop from buildings.
3. Maybe increase the gold packs from buildings like stated in A. Gives people more incentive to destroy buildings, push forward. Good things.

I don't know about B or C, but the other changes seem pretty boss!
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 01:58:15 pm by Tjens » Logged

Daemon
XR Main Developer
Legendary Member
****
Posts: 4763


beware, for this is the everbroken...


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2017, 08:04:36 pm »

2nd Gen Suggestions:
1. Extra Drops (stamina crystal and health potion) should have increased refill bonuses, making them worth the trouble of getting in the heat of the battle.

1. Extra Drops (stamina crystal and health potion) should have increased refill bonuses.
Great idea, what about 2x the values they have now? This would mean Healthdrops would increase from 10 to 20% and stamina from 20 to 40%. Maybe in the futute those numbers could be tweaked to 25 and 50 respectively, depending on the outcome and feedback from implenting the first number change. As they are now, health and stam goodies are hardly worthwile picking up even when they're right in front of you.

As a side effect the medikit and ammo drops from the balloon guy suddenly become worthwhile!

3. Remove the gold bags that drop from buildings.
3. Maybe increase the gold packs from buildings like stated in A. Gives people more incentive to destroy buildings, push forward. Good things.

I don't know about B or C, but the other changes seem pretty boss!

1. We'll double the restore value of current extra drops (20% HP and 40% stam back) and make new, rare ones, with double that values (40% HP and 80% stam). These will also be dropped by the Transport.

3. We'll try making redstone drops when killing buildings.

Also, Clemens has already coded player2comm gold donations, so we're considering making droppable gold bags for teammates to pick up.
Logged

drk
XR Coder
Hero Member
***
Posts: 509



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2017, 02:23:01 pm »

These will also be dropped by the Transport.
From all games I can say that this Transport is being made in a approximate proportion 1/100 to the Trees. Tree is very good for the t2. Since it can heal on the distance an so on.
From my point of view (from the point of com), today's Transports are useless to the team.
I'd suggest you to add them to drop gold. Not unlimited. With some kind of a timer (like a regen). It could be much more useful for a t1 than it is now.
Logged

Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.023 seconds with 20 queries.