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Author Topic: Discuss: Siege units  (Read 7446 times)
Daemon
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« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2015, 01:11:33 pm »

I tend to agree that content is beneficial. I also have approved of and appreciated every Savage XR patch and will welcome new ones.

 However let's remember that Starcraft: Broodwar was last patched in 2009 and is still played today, internationally. This being said, SC:BW was left in a much better state by Blizzard than Savage by S2. You only need 2 players to start a game, and ping is not as big a factor.

And was played by billion. A small part of a large number is obviously still larger than a small part of a small number Wink. Logic 1-o-1.

And there's a new content patch coming soon. Let all hell break loose! Smiley
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blackdeath
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« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2015, 02:19:14 pm »

Any organism that doesn't evolve, goes extinct. Same goes for everything in this world, regardless of the dinosaurs refusing to adapt.

I'm not sure savage is classed as an organism much less did dinosaurs become extinct due to not adapting, its funny, I visualized dinosaurs developing some sort of meteor proof umbrella and  central heating to survive the ice age. But I think I see where you're coming from.

The game dies because it's old and dusty. Much more people left Savage because it never changes, you always see 2h draw games going on, kinixxxes and stat whores farming newbs. If change came sooner, things would have been different. There's a reason EVERY SUCCESSFUL GAME CONTINUOUSLY ADDS NEW CONTENT. Despite haters.

Perhaps we see differently as to what a "SUCCESSFUL GAME" is! and like I've already said, I like new content and changes so long as its a modification of the original that is separate from the original unless its to fix technical issues. I think "haters" as you call them are simply showing there displeasure at a decision, do those comments not have any basis? are they just trolling for no apparent reason? are these "haters" born this way? and are the complainers before the patch about behe camping haters too? I try to see it from both sides - as should you.

The fact that behe campers hate not being able to spawn and kill demorunners and their demos anymore is to be expected. 100x more people wanted for the behe's camping abilities to be removed.

I've seen many players complain about "behe camping" and I've seen the same players camp with behemoth the very next game, and that said, I've seen a lot of ppl say how bad the new behe detonating demo is. I think camping should be part of any game like savage, and the abilities to counter it should be on the opposing team, and not a nerfing of a unit. I always thought before the patch happened that the most sensible logical suggestion would come to fruition (spawn timers), and was surprised (very) that it did not.

That being said, the discussions are still open and have been for the past 4 years. Very soon, we will most likely test-change the way demo defusing works: 3 hits from anyone, including behes. It won't kill them but they won't kill demos either. See how that works.

Once again, this is a nerfing of a unit as the damage of behemoth to demo would be reduced, and i think spawn timers for entering spawning entering spawning is the money shot of where to look for a prevention method for camping. Because when i camp thats the procedure for me, as standing around without re-entering gets you all shot up - which is fine?
And I guess discussing the abhorrent decision to eliminate gold drops for siege kills is the subject for another thread?

because when a murderer kills me, I drop my wallet, but If i get hit by a bus, I hide it in my underpants, and yes - when I'm dead I make these decisions.  Wink
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BrownAle
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« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2015, 04:11:23 pm »

Have a look at the poll, more than 50% welcome changes on SavageXR itself, not on any mods you can load when you feel like it. The majority has made a decision, live with it.

Besides, it's not the behe that got nerfed, it's the demo that got buffed for well thought through reasons. I also mentioned above that it's really not that hard to cope with the new changes as behe. People moaning today might adapt tomorrow and star liking it in a week. Changes just need time to be evaluated properly. I don't think the exploding demo is around long enough to condemn it already.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 04:20:16 pm by Ale » Logged
Daemon
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« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2015, 08:49:18 pm »

Blackdeath, i got a question for you, considering the current main page poll. What would you do, as a conscious dev:

1. Ignore the 70% that want new content.
or
2. Ignore the 20% that want the old same thing.

But percents don't even matter! So let me rephrase. Would you:
1. Do what the majority wants.
or
2. Do what the minority wants.

Thank you.
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blackdeath
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« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2015, 12:48:54 am »

Blackdeath, i got a question for you, considering the current main page poll. What would you do, as a conscious dev:

1. Ignore the 70% that want new content.
or
2. Ignore the 20% that want the old same thing.

But percents don't even matter! So let me rephrase. Would you:
1. Do what the majority wants.
or
2. Do what the minority wants.

Thank you.

Hello Savages

Poll being the magic word - yes I want ppl to vote on savage xr 1.1 and classic savage, I'm glad you understand this now...

You mention new content? what does the nerfing have to do with new content?, I think new content in most peoples minds is new content not adjustments to unit damage and restriction of game play. Like I said a few posts back - most people don't visit these forums, maybe expand your statistics to the actual people playing savage (just a suggestion).

So to sum up and answer your question I would make all these changed "you've" made to savage part of evolution mod and keep it there, because some of us want a choice - I hope this helps answer your questions.
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Daemon
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« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2015, 06:46:51 am »

Evolution's purpose is testing changes and new content before being included in standard.
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Stringer
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« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2015, 12:24:30 pm »

I think new content in most peoples minds is new content not adjustments to unit damage and restriction of game play
In my mind, as a general definition, new content is a new game mechanic.
It can be a new item, unit, building, map prop, or it can be a new property of existing item, unit, building, map prop.

New item, or a new property of existing item means there is a designated use for said item or property.
A "use" in a game like savage means a use against something (or a use to help with something).

Now, blackdeath, bear with me for the following logic exercise:

If an item can be effectively used against something, then introduction of said item is effectively a nerf to that something.
If a new item does not nerf anything, it means it can not be effectively used against anything, therefore, it is useless.
A useless item does not add any mechanic to gameplay because noone uses it.
Therefore, for an item to add any new mechanic into the game, it needs to nerf something (or buff something)

Therefore, adding new content automatically means nerfing something and/or buffing something.

You can do nerfing and buffing without adding new content.
But you can not add new content without nerfing and/or buffing.
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blackdeath
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« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2015, 02:25:52 pm »

I think new content in most peoples minds is new content not adjustments to unit damage and restriction of game play
In my mind, as a general definition, new content is a new game mechanic.
It can be a new item, unit, building, map prop, or it can be a new property of existing item, unit, building, map prop.

New item, or a new property of existing item means there is a designated use for said item or property.
A "use" in a game like savage means a use against something (or a use to help with something).

Now, blackdeath, bear with me for the following logic exercise:

If an item can be effectively used against something, then introduction of said item is effectively a nerf to that something.
If a new item does not nerf anything, it means it can not be effectively used against anything, therefore, it is useless.
A useless item does not add any mechanic to gameplay because noone uses it.
Therefore, for an item to add any new mechanic into the game, it needs to nerf something (or buff something)

Therefore, adding new content automatically means nerfing something and/or buffing something.

You can do nerfing and buffing without adding new content.
But you can not add new content without nerfing and/or buffing.


This logically made no sense to me... "You can do nerfing and buffing without adding new content." (are you supporting my case or not)?
New content in my mind is a new unit/weapon/effect/element not a damage reduction within an existing mechanic.  Get technical and precise if you want, but this is not the issue I'm addressing, not by a long shot and I'm sure you know this.

Stinger - (bear with me for the following logic exercise)
In video gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that makes something less effective or desirable. The word can be used as a verb to describe that change. The opposite of nerf is buff.
Take the word "something" meaning existing in that context (demo charge was existing), meaning not new, but changed, altered and therefore not new "content", but sure its a new "idea", "concept", but you really are scraping at the bottom of the barrel if your only argument is about my choice of words.

If you have any thought about why the siege changes are good or not, as the topic implies, then please don't hesitate to tell us your thoughts. If you want to to get technical about definitions and logical consistency, then at least look at my thoughts about the changes in question and not what inconsistencies in logic (that you see) in my posts.
Whats wrong with defending the changes that have been made, instead of trying to pull the logic card as some sort of argument against.

But considering you're in that mindset, I refer to my last point about siege kills (for "Stringers" logical evaluation)

"And I guess discussing the abhorrent decision to eliminate gold drops for siege kills is the subject for another thread?"

because when a murderer kills me, I drop my wallet, but If i get hit by a bus, I hide it in my underpants, and yes - when I'm dead I make these decisions.  Wink

Look forward to hearing from you.
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BrownAle
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« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2015, 04:38:37 pm »

because when a murderer kills me, I drop my wallet, but If i get hit by a bus, I hide it in my underpants, and yes - when I'm dead I make these decisions.  Wink

Where's the logic in that? It's not your "wallet" you're losing when you get killed and goodies drop. In fact you don't even lose a single piece of gold. The goodie drop is a reward for the enemies for killing you and not the result of plundering your corpse. Some people decided that it should be less rewarded if you kill someone with a siege unit.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 04:58:23 pm by Ale » Logged
blackdeath
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« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2015, 05:19:24 pm »

The lack of logic is my point Ale, thanks for pointing that out.
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Daemon
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« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2015, 06:57:08 pm »

Playing fantastic video games requires Suspension of Disbelief.

That said, the game doesn't have to be aberrant. For instance, if a Chaplain's purpose is physical and moral support for the troops, translated into healing and boosting troops' psychological state by their presence and their interventions, you cannot, for instance, give it a war-like ability. Somebody suggested a function of Chaplains allowing the team members around them to share ammunition, meaning that ammo % would be equalized to everyone in range by evenly distributing the ammo of all those teammates among themselves.

It's a nice ability, but it's incompatible with the Chaplain concept.

The gold reward was exactly one of those things that, even though stupid IRL, since monkits don't carry gold pouches and missile boxes, was added long ago to the game as an incentive to kill other entities. But siege camping was making the game annoying. Swarms of people demanded the removal of 1h1k (1 hit 1 kill) ability from Summoner and Ballista. While that would have been very radical, changing the entire paradigm of using a siege unit, another solution had to be found. It would transfer the incentives for using SIEGE units from FOOT SOLDIERS to BUILDINGS. Therefore, pulverizing a foot unit to pieces by huge tree, spears or flaming rocks (meant for destroying buildings) would not be rewarded with gold being dropped. Hitting buildings, on the other hand, rewarded double the previous amounts. It's a fair trade-off and it resulted in a shift of the use of siege from whoring to hitting buildings. Despite dinosaurs.

You still did not answer my question. You said something about a vote instead. If we really are unable to shed the old and welcome the new, and if anything would get to be added, would be a Legacy mod so the bitter minority that does not want to play the up-to-date-game can vote. But it would be useless, since that's what we did with EX2 and nobody plays it, that's what we did with SFE*2 and 1/100 were using it and so on.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 07:24:19 pm by Daemon » Logged

BrownAle
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« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2015, 07:19:49 pm »

The lack of logic is my point Ale, thanks for pointing that out.

The lack of logic was in your words. Whatever, what Daemon said +1. And now finally end your personal crusade here because you won't stop Daemon (and his team) from changing Savage especially since he's backed up by the majority of the community. But if you decide to continue, bring up people supporting you and at least have the courage to post under your real nick. Thank you.
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Stringer
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« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2015, 08:37:45 pm »

blackdeath.

We should ask players who play the game.
I play the game nearly every day, and I think with recent changes the game got better.
(And making the game better is all that matters)
I didn't see you playing even once, blackdeath, so apparently your arguments are purely speculative.

So, the player who do play, says the changes made game better.
The one who just speculates, says they did not.

"No more questions, your honor"

PS.
Sorry for offtopic
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blackdeath
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« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2015, 11:31:13 pm »

Well I've seen you play about 30 times in the 11 years I've played and 30 of which purely as human, where you were trying to get ridiculous kill streaks with the assistance of relocator. So goodluck with that argument buddy  Afro

I grow weary of your lack of understanding Ale
btw I use the following aliases.

UnnamedNewbie, uttar, XR_FirstTimePlayer

You still did not answer my question. You said something about a vote instead. If we really are unable to shed the old and welcome the new, and if anything would get to be added, would be a Legacy mod so the bitter minority that does not want to play the up-to-date-game can vote. But it would be useless, since that's what we did with EX2 and nobody plays it, that's what we did with SFE*2 and 1/100 were using it and so on.

Yes please, a vote for legacy or classic savage, w/e you call it and no ex2 needs its own server and client ext game afaik. So just make a mod like extreme/samurai/evolution that is savage xr 1.0.

Its not as complicated as you make it out to be.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 02:10:53 am by blackdeath » Logged
Daemon
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« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2015, 07:14:48 am »


= Djinghis
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