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Savage: XR is a new patch for Savage, created by the Newerth.com staff. The XR1.1 Client is out now! Download it now!
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Author Topic: Savage XR 1.1 Patch  (Read 50381 times)
Daemon
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« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2014, 06:04:54 am »

- I personally don't really like the savage helmet used as offi flag replacement (especially in the scoreboard).
- The square that is shown when someone is targeted could potentially get in the way of someone coiling or temping at long range.

Beautiful or not, i had to put something "consistent" on all fronts: flag, userlist icon, state icon and especially the new officer task panel, which clearly indicates what's what.

Looks like a good patch. Only thing I don't agree with are balli sprint and behe hit causing demo to explode. Humans don't need buffs tbh.

I don't agree with half of them Smiley. I do agree with players being discouraged from behecamping, especially at flag. That was a leitmotif that came up repeatedly.

We will discuss 2nd generation changes though. We now need to re-re-balance, after some testing.

Latest stats on Groen's for the last 3 years.

RACE.......WINS....Average Time
beast.......8768.....20.72 min
draw........2247.....36.69 min
human.....6382.....22.24 min

Beasts win 37% more games than humans. What we need to focus on is getting rid of those couple thousands of draws... what's the point of playing a game that never ends?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 06:13:25 am by Daemon » Logged

H3027
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« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2014, 07:19:41 am »

It's ridiculous how people are complaining about balancing details while they are okay with respawntimes being halfed from default 30 to 15 seconds on public servers, giving a HUGE boost to the team with better mobility (especially when high gold and xp make mobility even more effective and allow you to constantly go to battle without waiting). The dev team could remove behemoths and flux all together from the game, and even that would affect the balance less than these basic server settings do.

Oh, so you want the game to be balanced on 15 seconds respawntime, high gold and xp? Well, that's nothing a 10 year old community would want to go through. You'd have to change everything from max HP, items to weapon damage.

I've never seen anyone complaining about these big things, so why are you complaining at all? Afro


With default settings on gold, xp and respawn times you'll have less draws, as the weaker team can get gold starved and the stronger team will eventally manage to finish the game. There will be less stalemates either with Beasts fighting in front of the Human base for hours, as gold and respawntimes are lower, allowing the team with less mobility to move out of their base. You'll have less powermining and a nice, diverse early game, making Savage less dull. Sacrushes won't always work as you can't respawn 2-5 seconds after you hit the enemy base, instead you'll have to sit 17-20 seconds longer in the loadout - enough time for humans to actually deal damage to the sub instead of being busy shooting the never ending wave of saccers, that have enough xp to do 5 leaps and enough gold to buy frenzy and sac all the time. And you'll also have less draws for the reason of sac rushs being less powerful: going for shield first and wasting all redstone on towering up the base won't be necessary, human commanders can use different tactics and be more offensive - which is also more fun for the Beast team that gets rewarded for using good tactics as well and won't have to fight a wall of towers once they advanced to the human base.

But hey, since you don't like the default settings, enjoy your dull, imbalanced pubs!

I'm looking forward to the NSL6 games Smiley
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 08:16:06 am by H3027 » Logged



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« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2014, 08:53:36 am »

amen sister
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impulse
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« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2014, 02:18:30 pm »

Flux stamina drain and easy kills with ballista is still lame regardless of these settings. Maybe siege camping could be fixed or improved with less gold and higher respawn timers.

A lot of it seems map dependent as maps have such a variety of gold camps and geometry that encourage rushing. Maps have been virtually unplayed recently on pub servers.  I hate the gold creep farming mechanic but I can't think of a better alternative.

Maybe re tweak the game so that gold is more individual based? A quick thought would be lower the team gold pool significantly and make towers cheaper gold wise. Or limit how much people can take from the global pool?

Make respawn time based on experience levels and not on a global clock? The experience settings and rate would need to be tweaked of course, also beasts need some exceptions since they have sac but and no relocater. I think 30 seconds is too long in the early game since each second can be so crucial in defending a rush.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 02:20:29 pm by impulse » Logged
Daemon
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« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2014, 03:27:51 pm »

There will be less gold available to siege whores. As the changes say, siege units killing foot units will not produce gold at all. Shooting buildings will return twice as.much gold as before.
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Hakugei
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« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2014, 04:06:52 pm »

Server hotfix patch is out.

Content hotfix patch is out as well.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 04:12:34 pm by Hakugei » Logged
Bobbe
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« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2014, 04:23:38 pm »

It's interesting to see balance changes still being made. Since I was told to post my suggestions and noticed that I'm actually not alone in my beliefs (H3027 pretty much nailed it), I'll take the opportunity to list the best of my suggestions here:

- behemoths can no longer spin while attacking
- relocater requires an additional ~3 seconds to activate (triggering a visual charging animation for the enemy to see) (optional: this only applies for an interval of ~5 seconds after taking damage)
- increased respawn times (and/or adapt sacrifice strength to the tier of the unit using it)
- flux changed into tier 3 (or balanced to match repeater-level)
- reduced recources mined per hit by nomads/scavengers from 5 to 1
- remove/drastically decrease exp gained from mining and building; increase exp gained from hitting enemy buildings with melee
- critters now act like gerkats, attacking anyone who hurts their brethren in the vicinity (this makes monkits harder to kill than oschores); make them correctly switch targets to the unit attacking them and also prevent them from chasing units that are out of range all over the map

Out of the sheer number of balance changes I came up with until now, I chose these as the most powerful, effective and easy-to-implement combination that would cover the most of the balancing wishes from my side as far as the flow of the game is concerned.
Some of these might require thorough explanation but if you read H3027's post you'll see where I'm coming from.

Here's two more ideas (these are really just ideas, not suggestions) that I consider worth mentioning
- ranged weapon damage against siege units decreased; melee damage against siege units increased (making sieges easier to protect)
- make ballista shots pierce behemoths like coil and hit the sub lair behind them

Hope some of this helps to come up with new ideas. Cheers.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 06:38:53 pm by Bobbe » Logged
Hakugei
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« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2014, 04:25:50 pm »

It's interesting to see balance changes still being made. Since I was told to post my suggestions and noticed that I'm actually not alone in my beliefs (H3027 pretty much nailed it), I'll take the opportunity to list the best of my suggestions here:

You belong here: Re-balancing Suggestions
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APirateHat
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« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2014, 05:12:04 pm »

I'll have some time with this update and then I'll see how I like it. Agree that the new officers icon is ugly though.

It's easy to make balance suggestions and think they're good but you won't know how they are until they're tested long enough with different maps and player amount. Savage will also never be truly balanced no matter how many times you change it.
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H3027
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« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2014, 05:25:33 pm »

The helmet officer icon is certainly better than no icon as it was since XR 1.0.

Though I'd suggest to use the old sun officer icon from pre XR 1.0 versions (that looks best) as default and use the helmet for the squad officer icon instead.

Another thing I dislike is the beast armor that is gray since 1.0. It looks much better in brown, contrasting the gray beast unit.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 05:29:30 pm by H3027 » Logged



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« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2014, 05:34:19 pm »

It's interesting to see balance changes still being made. Since I was told to post my suggestions and noticed that I'm actually not alone in my beliefs (H3027 pretty much nailed it), I'll take the opportunity to list the best of my suggestions here:

- behemoths can no longer spin while attacking
- relocater requires an additional ~3 seconds to activate (triggering a visual charging animation for the enemy to see) (optional: this only applies for an interval of ~5 seconds after taking damage)
- increased respawn times (and/or adapt sacrifice strength to the tier of the unit using it)
- flux changed into tier 3 (or balanced to match repeater-level)
- reduced recources mined per hit by nomads/scavengers from 5 to 1
- remove/drastically decrease exp gained from mining and building; increase exp gained from hitting enemy buildings with melee
- critters made hostile, attacking units in a range of ~3m radius (this makes monkits harder to kill than oschores); make them correctly switch targets to the unit attacking them and also prevent them from chasing units that are out of range all over the map

Out of the sheer number of balance changes I came up with until now, I chose these as the most powerful, effective and easy-to-implement combination that would cover the most of the balancing wishes from my side as far as the flow of the game is concerned.
Some of these might require thorough explanation but if you read H3027's post you'll see where I'm coming from.

Here's two more ideas (these are really just ideas, not suggestions) that I consider worth mentioning
- ranged weapon damage against siege units decreased; melee damage against siege units increased (making sieges easier to protect)
- make ballista shots pierce behemoths like coil and hit the sub lair behind them

Hope some of this helps to come up with new ideas. Cheers.


My hat goes off to you for thinking of the most creative load of crap suggestions! Some are good though, 3 and 6 are actually proper suggestions.

If you increase the reloc timer even more and couldn't move while relocating, then maybe humans could use the buffs you've been suggesting. But then you'd be creating a whole different game.
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d00m
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« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2014, 07:11:14 pm »

beasts get some buffs too... seems fair.
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JmZ
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« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2014, 07:46:19 pm »

Well done, some very nice features and such.

But every major gameplay change should be made optional (whether it be on a per-change basis or one big "enable the new 1.1 features" toggle). The reason for this is that such a large change should be trialed by the users who will play with it, and if they don't like it, it should be disabled.

Maybe everyone will like the changes and I will leave them on, but a choice must be there. It is not right to forcefully add such huge alterations, meaning if we decide we preferred the old game, we have to roll back to an unsupported version.

For example, stamina changes and such make an insanely huge difference which players may or may not like. Depending on what they decide, it should be enabled or disabled, not depending on what you and some forum regulars want.

Make it optional.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 07:48:35 pm by JmZ » Logged



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Hakugei
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« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2014, 07:52:51 pm »

As I said, it was optional (Evolution) for more than at least a year.
People were already able to test it (and did once in a while - I don't have the exact numbers), and people already gave feedback to it. These changes came from suggestions from the community, then said community commented on it, and now the community gets it in the game.

The process you described already happened.

Now, the changes are implemented, and people can test them again, as well as give feedback, again.
As Daemon said here:
Even after discussions spanning more than 180.000 views and more than 1000 replies, the changes above ARE SUBJECTED TO FURTHER TWEAKING pending community feedback! Nothing is really ever final with Savage, so do not panic and enjoy the game Smiley.
So please test stuff for a while, and then give appropriate feedback to revisit certain features and changes.
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H3027
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« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2014, 07:58:37 pm »

I agree with JMZ.

However, I'd wait with making it optional for at least 2 weeks. Otherwise people/admins will just disable it from the very begin and can hence lazily avoid contributing to the improvement of those new changes, by not even bothering testing them at all. With the consequence that it will take unnecessary longer to get feedback and to get the changes adjusted and optimized to what the community wants.
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First Witch: When shall we three meet again / In thunder, lightning, or in rain?
Second Witch: When the hurlyburly's done, / When the battle's lost and won.
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