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Author Topic: S04: Alternative Attack Mode for Summoner  (Read 4168 times)
Daemon
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« on: December 28, 2010, 10:01:33 am »

Suggested by: Mohican
(UPDATED: 2010-12-30)

My re-balancing suggestion:
Improved Attack Mode for Summoner

1. The precise change you wanna see done.
Keep attack the same as before when a player press and release the attack button.
If player keeps the attack button pressed, make the missile follow the crosshair.

2. What triggered it.
Good commanders know how to create impenetrable bases with inaccessible shields.
This can cause endless games that end in a draw (unless someone manages to shimmy his way to the shield).

3. The predicted overall effect of your change.
By using crosshair tracking, summoners should in theory be able to lob shots to any shield.

The impact on the game:

4. What will be harder to do, and for which side.
No more impenetrable bases, this will probably annoy human commanders.
On the other hand, the skill level to reach a shield by crosshair tracking should be made sufficiently difficult.
This can be achieved by making the shot's range shorter, so that a summoner cannot reach shields from a safe position.
Using lobbed shots should require team work (a summoner escorted close to enemy lines by a squad of preds).

5. What will be easier to accomplish, and by whom.
No more need for shimmying, meaning one less thing for referees to monitor (ie: shimmy shield repairing).
Easier for beasts to break turtle bases.

6. Will it make the game harder or easier for newbies (vs. veterans), and why.
The skill level required for this new attack means only vets will be able to use it properly.
Newbies will not be affected by it (unless they decide to have a go at commanding!).

The ripple effect

7. Subsequent changes needed to tone down (compensate for) the effects of this change.
Maybe an increase in the gold cost of the summoner should reflect his improved capability.

8. Other changes, which the current suggestion depends on so it can work properly.
Keep the shimmy exploit fix.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 06:19:18 am by Mohican » Logged


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Daemon
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« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2010, 10:17:34 am »

I would suggest instead of right click, just add a 2nd inventory item weapon.

The problem with summ having 2 different attack modes/skills, tho, is that it would be the only siege unit that does, not to mention being the only ranged siege unit with unlimited shots. Fairness calls for adding the others some kind of 2nd skill as well.

This new projectile could prove troublesome from a technical point of view. In order to land a shot above the towers, it would have to be able to fire RL "mortar-style" rounds, which makes it a very long lasting projectile. At this point, even with restricted camera movements and aiming, catas are able to exploit certain maps and shoot over impassable terrain. But with a much nimbler summ with a 360 degree aiming ability, this should be easier.

How about rethinking the change in terms of adding certain effects to the summ projectile, like a "corrosive" attribute: after hitting the shield, it sticks to it and slowly continues to inflict damage over time, which cumulated with other shots, enables summs to kill a shield in 3 hits instead of 4, if the shield is not repaired. Or an effect that makes "corroded" buildings able to be repaired only with half the efficiency, for the duration of the effect, halving the "mass nomads repair" efficiency.

God knows other siege units are in need of a little variation and help, here and there. For example the Behe could use something to make it worth its cost. Giving his trunk bash a ground shaking effect that freezes or slows enemies in a small radius around it might do the trick.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 10:21:04 am by Daemon » Logged


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Mohican
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« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2010, 10:27:06 am »

In Savage 2, the Behe has several capabilities.
One of them consists of stamping the ground with one foot to freeze ennemies.

I agree that all the siege units need revisiting.
But we may end-up opening a can of worms....
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Daemon
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« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2010, 10:35:04 am »

You opened it! Cheesy

Well this is the reason this forum exists. Having ideas submitted for "peer review" and see how they fare.
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« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2010, 10:42:32 am »

I still don't really get your idea, can you explain it a little more detailed?
And should this gravity shot just damage buildings or also other players?
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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2010, 10:59:43 am »

imo bad idea means siege are strong enough as it is, and think about how many more siege whiners you'll get
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2010, 11:03:48 am »

The siege whiners are due to 1-shotting stuff.
It's not like the 2nd ability will be used for shooting at units, because it's WAY more difficult to aim. (And if it is used for that, be happy, as it's less likely to hit. :p)
You rarely see cata campers compared to bali campers.
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WinterFresh
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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2010, 01:39:52 pm »

Replace the classic attack mode with this one.  tongue
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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2010, 02:18:48 pm »

maybe instead of a new weapon some sort of mini storm shield (with a cooldown) that can be used again and again
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Mohican
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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2010, 02:34:34 pm »

maybe instead of a new weapon some sort of mini storm shield (with a cooldown) that can be used again and again

You missed the point mate.
The idea is to give beasts a way to knock down encased ennemy shields.
This should reduce the number of draws due to turtle bases.

Giving the summoner a shield is just some random idea with no purpose.
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Trikitiger
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« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2010, 02:35:15 pm »

It would be better if you wrote out what you mean by "Gravity Shot" ^^;; Not -everyone- knows what you mean (took me a bit to figure out). The summ shot arcs already, but I see where you get gravity shot from. Instead of having a trajectory of about... I dunno, lets give some good round numbers of 100 meters for every 5 meters of drop (no matter which direction), the second shot allows it to be more catapult like so it can lob shots above certain towers. (so that we don't need to re-include shimmying for turtled bases). Wall-shield style turtle bases you can't prevent, that's just bad map-making and the comm making good use of the territory.

I too think that the second shot should, instead, be a second slot instead of a right-click. All beast use the right-mouse button for a dodge, not an attack (same can be said for hummies and blocking), so why mess with the control scheme and give summs a shot under the right-mouse button? If you have it as a second attack slot, you have an entire spot to change and alter the attack, and not trying to squeeze code into 1 weapon.

Though winterfresh's comment could work too. You have Fireball for a straight-on siege-like weapon, (Summ does 200-some gold of damage if it hits directly while Fireball does 175? Something like that)... But the problem is, if you change the ENTIRE way a unit moves and acts (not as an alternative), you may completely mess up the way people are used to using them. (May, not will)

The only thing I see a problem with it has to do with map making than the game itself. Most maps have Mist shields to prevent catapults but not summ shots (because Summ shots don't arc in the same way as catapults do), maps would then need to also protect against summ shots. Now do note that this has nothing to do with the game itself and more-so has to do with map-making. Also it would need to take some time to check the maps to see if both/all bases are protected by these mist shields in the same way, if they're being used (and if not, may bring about an uneven or unfair battlefield).

Um... Those are the only concerns, to wrap it up:
---I like the idea because it allows for summs to lob shots over towers, much like catapults do (Beasts have no other weapon that does such)
=====This will completely eliminate the need for shimmying
=====You know what HvH is so balanced? That's because they have catas to lob shots over towers towards the shield! This is one reason why HvH is so balanced.
---Having the difficulty significantly harder prevents newbies from just lobbing a shot and hitting the tower with ease
=====Not to mention that you need to be closer for lob shots, which makes protecting the siege all the more important
=====A 50+ HP boost (at max level) won't hurt too much in this retro-spec... will it? It would give them a little more survivability since they need to be closer to hit shields
---As long as it doesn't mess with the tradition control scheme (RMB = dodge, not an attack), it can be fine
=====In other words, it would be best to set the shot up under a second slot
=====If the lob attack were under a second slot, you can alter the control scheme all you want, however you need the control scheme, and without frustrating players

Sidenote: Excuse my spelling (and grammar), it's still a bit early in the morning ^^;;
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 02:40:29 pm by Trikitiger » Logged


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« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2010, 07:23:15 pm »



-or you can make the 2 types of shot as selectable weapons. when you pick summoner unit you can choose between 2 types of shots for your summoner:
1. normal ( the one ingame atm)
2. the gravity shot
 but you cannot have both. i think summs will be overpowered if they do have both.

just like beast melee units choose melee weapon :p

-another sollution, is to have both shots, but that each shot depends on how much mana the summoner unit have.

still, left click = normal shot, right click = gravity shot

the less mana the siege unit have, the less powerfull the shots will be. like:  90 % mana and a normal shot will NOT kill an legionaire :p
and a gravity shot will go further the more mana the shot have.










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Hakugei
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« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2010, 07:28:10 pm »

"Fling shot" may be a better name for it. :p
As the normal shot already is affected by "gravity".
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« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2010, 10:28:27 pm »

I like the idea of picking which shot you have before you spawn.
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« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2010, 12:06:28 am »

I like the idea of picking which shot you have before you spawn.

yeah, if you havegot both shots with the summ, i think the summoners will get too powerful.

it would be like balista shot & cata shot in one unit.
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