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Author Topic: Savage XR Rebalance thread  (Read 16580 times)
biggeruniverse
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« on: March 18, 2010, 01:12:48 am »

I mentioned some changed I was planning for Savage XR game balance, and I swear half the server was going to hunt be down with torches and pitchforks.

Needless to say, I found the debate highly amusing.  Smiley

So, here is a list of all the changes I have thus-far planned. This isn't the final list, it's really a draft. Drastic changes will be coming, and that's mainly because one of two things has to happen at this point: Savage: BFN will continue to die a slow death or will attract new players by being a more vital and fast-paced melee game than it is now.

Modified March 18th 2010

Beast
+ Summ gets a further nerf to unit damage, from 55% to 20% (from 660 to 240 damage)
+ Summ damage v.s siege buffed, from 48% to 65% (from 576 to 780)
+ Summ stuns unit when summoner strike hits
+ Summ gets melee weapon, dealing damage and knock-back
+ Behemoth can no longer capture flags
+ All spires work as motion sensors on minimap
+ Snare causes relocs not to function (if you survive the snare, you can use your reloc as normal)
+ Boost mana crystal recharge rate

Humans
+ Ballista is re-enterable (not destroyed when ejected)
+ Incinerator deals DOT like venomous does (lights players on fire)
+ Demopack is 20% larger (easier to see and hit)
+ As soon as a sensor is destroyed, enemy units disappear (right now it takes a few seconds)
+ Sensors are stackable (max 2)
+ Ammo packs allow players to pick up double the ammo (not just spawn with double)
+ Flux ammoMax reduced to 175

General
+ Bonus to damage and speed when in the presence of an officer
+ Boost to the recharge rate boost in the presence of an officer
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 08:31:11 am by biggeruniverse » Logged


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« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2010, 02:44:57 am »

How can you justify buffing human siege and debuffing beast siege when human siege is already that much more powerful? Also, giving a summoner the ability to melee is ridiculous, its ranged attack is more than enough. There's a reason the ability for summoners to melee was removed in the past, it is simply not 'balanced'. The siege units, on both sides, are fine the way they are now.

Also, making snare an instant kill item is pretty much ridiculous, effectively guaranteeing beasts gold while the relocator's prime job is to deny beast's gold. Snare basically cancels out relocator if your proposed 'rebalancing' were to go into effect.

The spire=sensor and boosting mana crystal recharge rate is fine though.

Will the incinerator damage the way it does now PLUS the 'poison' effect? I'm all for buffing the lesser used tech lines, but that means you have to buff the entropy line as well.

Why does the demo charge need to be larger? I can't imagine there have been many times when a demo goes off because people don't see it that a 20% boost in size would fix. The rest of the human points, stackable sensors and ammo packs are fair though, as well as everything under the General category.

But seriously, what you're planning on doing to siege is messed up.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 02:53:40 am by cutter » Logged

biggeruniverse
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« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2010, 03:46:03 am »

How can you justify buffing human siege and debuffing beast siege when human siege is already that much more powerful? Also, giving a summoner the ability to melee is ridiculous, its ranged attack is more than enough. There's a reason the ability for summoners to melee was removed in the past, it is simply not 'balanced'. The siege units, on both sides, are fine the way they are now.

Well of course I disagree, or I wouldn't have been thinking about changes for siege. The way summoners are today, they deal 55% v. unit, 105% v. building, and 48% v. siege damage (base damage is 1200). So I'd be willing to up the damage v. siege and change the role of a summoner to be an anti-siege unit (offset balli rushes with summoners). Scavengers with blaze are quite effective already, but they lack the range to counter a rush. Summoner melee will not deal high damage, but will knock enemies back. This gives the summ a little breathing room, and might be enough to knock a pesky nomad off your ruin tower or over a cliff and get him off your back.

Also, making snare an instant kill item is pretty much ridiculous, effectively guaranteeing beasts gold while the relocator's prime job is to deny beast's gold. Snare basically cancels out relocator if your proposed 'rebalancing' were to go into effect.

It would indeed make snare quite a dreaded item on the field. Not necessarily instant death, but you'd have to hang around for melee- no buff and reloc. But, on the other side, as a beast you have to give up something in inventory to carry a snare. Making snare a powerful weapon forces a hard choice.

The spire=sensor and boosting mana crystal recharge rate is fine though.

Yes, these were easy enough to add to the list. There's no equivalent of sensors for beast commanders really, and as for mana crystal recharge rate, if humans are allowed to pick up double the ammo with ammo pack I thought it fitting and fair.

Will the incinerator damage the way it does now PLUS the 'poison' effect? I'm all for buffing the lesser used tech lines, but that means you have to buff the entropy line as well.

Yes incinerator would deal DOT on top of the damage it does already. I won't be changing the range, or the difficult handling of the weapon. I've been thinking of ways to buff entropy, and I haven't decided how best to do it yet. I agree that it needs help. It's not a useless techline, but it's under used, and before it gets any love other things might have to get nerfed.

Why does the demo charge need to be larger? I can't imagine there have been many times when a demo goes off because people don't see it that a 20% boost in size would fix. The rest of the human points, stackable sensors and ammo packs are fair though, as well as everything under the General category.

But seriously, what you're planning on doing to siege is messed up.

Demo pack is larger partly as a cosmetic change. It's much too small when looking at it in 3rd person, or when it's on the ground, as compared to its size when you place it in 1st person. I think it was meant to be a larger more distinct item, as it is it's smaller than a medkit. The added benefit is that it's easily distinguishable in the midst of all its chemical smoke when the fuse is burning.

If you'll notice from the changes and discussion I'm making here, my focus is not only balance, but also focusing the game on melee which is Savage's really strong point. There will probably be a few human ranged weapon nerfs, but I don't want to decrease range as much as I want to increase melee when the situation presents itself.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 03:49:17 am by biggeruniverse » Logged


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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2010, 05:41:35 am »

These are very interesting changes.. I think before anything becomes final we should test run them to see if they work well and are worth keeping. I'm not sure about demo's being easier to kill, I mean its already a pain in the ass to get people to demo, or even successfully make a demo run, this will only deter them even more, if anything they need motivation to use demo's like beast use sac, and I like the incin. buff maybe adding a bit of control-ability to it as well, and the other 2 chem weapons need changes as well, along with the entropy line of weapons. I think sieges as a whole should be rearranged, ballista's should also nerf damage to units (except behemoths) but have a increase to health so people will need to actually protect them, but at this rate, with blaze killing them within 1.5 seconds it's nearly impossible to protect them unless they.. get the 1 hit kill.

Siege units should ONLY be used to... SIEGE buildings that is the entire point of them, not camping points to get kills, not camping base to protect it, to ONLY destroy buildings. Would also be great to see demo's being as versatile as SAC, I mean it can be used to kill players, sieges units and buildings, there is a reason why so many beast players whore sac and rarely demo's. Again not sure why it is being nerfed, we need people to use them more not less. Or make SAC hp dependent on damage, while increasing the overall damage that it does now, at full health.

I like the increased officer buffs, do they stack as well and if so how many times?

And for the record I am not going to fight or debate over my opinion, that is all it is, this is my view on it and has been for years now and it's not going to change so take it or leave it.
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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2010, 07:20:38 am »

These are entirely server settings which could be nothing else than mods. Like Chocolate Savage did, even if they were pretending that fixing (i.e. nerfing) stuff vets were complaining about like flux stam drain and longer block reposnse time, it's gonna revolutionize Savage, it had no been adopted  by the server owners. You can use these settings on a modded server, without risking dividing the community by forcing reluctant server owners to revert XR servers to the old settings, e.g. no summ melee, normal reloc etc.

I would welcome some intelligent changes in gameplay, and summ melee is actually kinda nice. We can talk all day about each of them but one thing is certain:

Making snare stop reloc WILL have the opposite effects of what you're hoping for. (more melee fights, more legos killed in melee). Reloc will be used preventively, much faster, much more often, much further away from beasts, with much higher HP, because you know that once you're close to beasts and snared, you're dead. It will make ranged whoring the word of the day forever and ever, for reasons i've already explained here: http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,9610.msg128101.html#msg128101 and the posts following it.

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biggeruniverse
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« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2010, 08:06:28 am »

These are entirely server settings which could be nothing else than mods. Like Chocolate Savage did, even if they were pretending that fixing (i.e. nerfing) stuff vets were complaining about like flux stam drain and longer block reposnse time, it's gonna revolutionize Savage, it had no been adopted  by the server owners. You can use these settings on a modded server, without risking dividing the community by forcing reluctant server owners to revert XR servers to the old settings, e.g. no summ melee, normal reloc etc.

Well if someone wants to mod savage back to "classic" gameplay, that's fine; but these changes are going to be core. I.e., new installs of Savage will have rebalanced units and items.

Making snare stop reloc WILL have the opposite effects of what you're hoping for. (more melee fights, more legos killed in melee). Reloc will be used preventively, much faster, much more often, much further away from beasts, with much higher HP, because you know that once you're close to beasts and snared, you're dead. It will make ranged whoring the word of the day forever and ever, for reasons i've already explained here: http://www.newerth.com/smf/index.php/topic,9610.msg128101.html#msg128101 and the posts following it.

How do you know they have snare? They may, they may not. Unless it's done, we'll never know if it will have the effect that you predict. Perhaps you're right, perhaps not. Snares will probably cost a little more too.

I'm not sure about demo's being easier to kill, I mean its already a pain in the ass to get people to demo, or even successfully make a demo run, this will only deter them even more, if anything they need motivation to use demo's like beast use sac, and I like the incin. buff maybe adding a bit of control-ability to it as well, ...

You've seen the new demo in test cross, the difference isn't that significant but it does help playability slightly. I think demo rushes work fine when they happen, they fail about as often as sac rushes fail if there is a concerted effort. I don't want incin to be any more controllable, as it's already getting buffed. Since you can basically just swing the incin back and forth and hit something eventually and thereby trigger the DOT, I think it'll work well as-is. You might see more early-game demo rushes when the tier 1 chem weapon has a little more bite. Right now it's a bigger risk to do a demo rush early than the reward for doing it.
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« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2010, 10:46:03 am »

Quote from: biggeruniverse
How do you know they have snare? They may, they may not. Unless it's done, we'll never know if it will have the effect that you predict. Perhaps you're right, perhaps not. Snares will probably cost a little more too.

You can ask around, there prolly isn't anybody who uses snare more than i do. I use it whenever it's available. And after stopping the demorunners a couple of times, they either whine and reloc when they see me defending spires or whatever tech, or they try and pick me first out of the crowd. Not that i manage to kill them anyway Wink, but they're scared of being snared.

And snare is increasingly getting used lately, alongside blaze or surge. Trust me, snare doesn't need any buffing, it just needs using. Even now, if you snare a lego and stick a baze/surge up his nose, he panics, block is not working and he can't see anything so that any melee pred makes short work of him.

But imagine knowing snare is as an often used an item as reloc is by hums, and there will prolly be no beast which does not carry snare in order to force legos into NOT reloccing. Which lego player would wanna get snared over and over again, because you can throw snare after snare and thus a death is pretty much a certainty. Nobody wants to go to certain death, therefore they'll keep away and just shoot them coils, and reloc preemptively.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 10:55:11 am by Daemon » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2010, 11:58:27 am »

I do agree with stopping reloc somehow but I think Daemon is right. This will make the guys who reloc a lot reloc even more. I think there is a better solution to the reloc issue but nothing comes to mind now.

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Daemon
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« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2010, 12:05:01 pm »

Raise the reloc cost to 1000.
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« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2010, 01:22:18 pm »

BURN HIM! Evil
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« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2010, 01:49:08 pm »

How do you know they have snare? They may, they may not. Unless it's done, we'll never know if it will have the effect that you predict. Perhaps you're right, perhaps not. Snares will probably cost a little more too.

Seriously, if snares was effective vs reloc you could be sure as hell that I'd make sure to tech entropy as early as possible in every game (unless humans have no elec). Especially in pugs this would make it much easier for beasts.

(I'm not saying that I like or dislike the idea of snare disabling reloc, just that entropy will become an very important beast tech and ppl will make sure to carry snare(s))
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« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2010, 03:57:04 pm »

Well if someone wants to mod savage back to "classic" gameplay, that's fine; but these changes are going to be core. I.e., new installs of Savage will have rebalanced units and items.

This is the problem with it all. These drastic changes would be forced upon the entire community.
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« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2010, 04:05:57 pm »

Well if someone wants to mod savage back to "classic" gameplay, that's fine; but these changes are going to be core. I.e., new installs of Savage will have rebalanced units and items.

This is the problem with it all. These drastic changes would be forced upon the entire community.

Who the FUCK CARES. If we don't change the current gameplay savage will stay as it is: fun-killing game with the worst gameplay ever. GGs
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biggeruniverse
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« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2010, 04:20:57 pm »

Well if someone wants to mod savage back to "classic" gameplay, that's fine; but these changes are going to be core. I.e., new installs of Savage will have rebalanced units and items.

This is the problem with it all. These drastic changes would be forced upon the entire community.

Yes, all 250 of you.
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« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2010, 04:21:50 pm »

Why do you still play this game then if it has the worst gameplay ever?

I know the reason I still play this game because there is nothing else like it on the market, and I enjoy pretty much every aspect of its gameplay.

Well if someone wants to mod savage back to "classic" gameplay, that's fine; but these changes are going to be core. I.e., new installs of Savage will have rebalanced units and items.

This is the problem with it all. These drastic changes would be forced upon the entire community.

Yes, all 250 of you.

Are you saying the relatively small community size allows you to mess with a huge part of how this game works (ie. siege and relocators)?

Also, if you're planning on removing 1HKO summoner hits, are you planning on removing 1HKO balli hits?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 04:26:21 pm by cutter » Logged

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