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Announcements => Main Page News => Topic started by: Daemon on July 10, 2017, 08:55:58 pm



Title: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Daemon on July 10, 2017, 08:55:58 pm
EXPERIMENTAL CHANGES INCOMING!

Hello again. Although ingame patch news is certainly more convenient to read than forum, we're letting everyone know about the hands-on, all-practice-no-theory, gameplay test changes weeks. This way, be it supporter or opposer of said changes, everyone has the chance to experience first-hand some of the most controversial subjects with some of the more controversial changes.

Week 0: Already happening since XR 1.3 - Behemoth sprint.
Week 1: Behemoth sprint + Behemoth melee hit slow down to 1/5 movement speed.
Week 2: Behe rolled back, Sac and Fire Wards switch places (Sac tier 1, Wards tier 2).
Week 3: Sac and Fire Wards switch kept; researching any tier 2 items may skip researching tier 1 items first.
Week 4: 1-hit-1-kill effect removed from Ballista and Summoner ranged attacks, by reducing damage vs. foot units (Lego and Pred survive 1 hit)
Week 5: 1h1k is restored for Preds/Legos lower than lvl6. Summoner gets magical melee attack that pushes enemies back and Ballista gets a Field Service Mode where it can be repaired and restocked.

CURRENTLY UP - A BREAK!:

Thanks for giving us some leeway to experiment by voting for more frequent patches, in such large percentage (72% for daily/weekly/monthly). After the test weeks are done, we're going to roll everything back and analyze the results, and make permanent - or remove - any and all changes.



Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: SavageBeard on July 13, 2017, 12:03:12 am
 :idiot:


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Trigardon on July 13, 2017, 12:49:42 am
:idiot:

http://www.newerth.com/?id=poll

Maybe try it before you judge it :-)


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Bullet on July 13, 2017, 09:29:04 pm
I like that you dare to test things before implementing them, its an improvement from developement in the past

However, where are people supposed to give feedback for these weeks?
It is my impression that the poll on the mainpage is the only thing at the moment for players to give feedback, unless the players create their own topic or reply here with feedback (some people dont bother enough to write stuff here...)

The current options are 4 (for week 2), and seems to focus on feedback on the sacrush. For instance, there is no feedback for liking that behemoth rolled back (I assume this means = behemoth sprint removed?)

I have no idea how you measure your feedback, but as a constructive voice, if you are using the poll results, consider making more options to cover more opinions.




Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Trigardon on July 13, 2017, 09:47:31 pm
There are so many ways to reach the XR team. Best way is posting on here, the Re-Balancing Sub Forum or just leave them a PM. (I like the PM option alot!) :-)


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Hakugei on July 13, 2017, 10:15:44 pm
Post here, make an own thread in General Discussion, make an own thread in Re-Balancing Section, post in the related existing balance threads for said changes, PM/IM Daemon - there are so many options.

The poll is merely a quick gauge to measure the overall opinion, which works well to capture the silent and lazy people; yet people that ACTUALLY want to be heard (and are considered the most for future changes) can post about anywhere. We even have a new Forum Admin that will handle any necessary moving or redirecting for lost souls.

This is really not a problem.


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Trigardon on July 14, 2017, 01:53:44 am
Post here, make an own thread in General Discussion, make an own thread in Re-Balancing Section, post in the related existing balance threads for said changes, PM/IM Daemon - there are so many options.

The poll is merely a quick gauge to measure the overall opinion, which works well to capture the silent and lazy people; yet people that ACTUALLY want to be heard (and are considered the most for future changes) can post about anywhere. We even have a new Forum Admin that will handle any necessary moving or redirecting for lost souls.

This is really not a problem.

Really, who is this lost Soul? I think we need some Global Moderators!


Title: Re: A much better way of thinking
Post by: phoenix-3000 on July 14, 2017, 09:17:34 am
I would prefer that programmers focus on cheats:
1) No jumping in the vicinity of a garrison, burrow, spawn-flag, grimms-wall, higher than the top of the object
2) no construction possible in the vicinity of a grimms-wall
3) ...

Je préfèrerai que les programmeurs se concentrent sur la lutte des tricheurs
1) pas de saut possible au voisinage d'une garnison, d'un terrier, d'un spawnflag, d'un grimmswall , plus haut que le sommet de l'objet en question
2) pas de construction possible au voisinage d'un grimmswall
3) ...


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Daemon on July 16, 2017, 08:38:15 pm
Update:
Next week's test would be removing the need to research any tier 1 item before researching any tier 2 item, so that any of the items can be researched in whatever order, as long as the tier requirements are met.


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Daemon on July 19, 2017, 06:48:24 am
Week 3 is on!


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Daemon on July 27, 2017, 06:22:12 am
CURRENTLY UP Week 4: 1-hit-1-kill effect removed from Ballista and Summoner ranged attacks, by reducing damage vs. foot units (Lego and Pred survive 1 hit)


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Grapists on July 29, 2017, 10:41:17 am
gay changes are gay


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Grapists on July 29, 2017, 10:42:05 am
Why don't developers just listen to phoe? his ideas are actually good.


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Hakugei on July 29, 2017, 11:37:51 am
Like what?
Could make a "Phoe" mod. :roll:


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Bullet on July 29, 2017, 11:55:16 am
Feedback, week 4 (1-hit-1-kill effect removed from Ballista and Summoner ranged attacks):

- I like it because it make teamwork more important, siege units are not supposed to go solo.
- I dislike that its a stronger nerf to humans than to beasts, as the balistas are more important in the human defense than summoners are for beasts.
- However, I'd rather keep this change, and then figure out something else to improve the humans a bit more, in terms of overall balance.


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Daemon on July 29, 2017, 03:25:50 pm
Thank you for your feedback, Bullet. You deserve an award tbh. Maybe we can design a unique item or something, for the most involved players!


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Seghi on July 30, 2017, 10:52:25 pm
I believe that the week 4 update is a good twist to the game since it facilitates team play during late game, whilst maintaining early and mid game dynamics. However, although it is a nerf for human defensive as Bullet underlined, it is also a nerf for the beast offensive, which balances the former out. Imagine a sneaky summoner, which so often happens, trying to get a shield down by himself. If a lego approaches, he is literally dead, no chances of surviving with the new patch, and in my own experience there were multiple times I sneaked, killed one or two incoming enemies and also got the shield down by myself, and oh boy that feels really good  :bow:
Therefore, maybe increased mana regeneration, around 10-20% for summoners would do the trick for 1v1 summ vs lego, and a 10-20% increase in rotation speed for ballis would help with 1v1 balli vs pred situations. In this manner, you could keep the sneaky siege units but also control for balli and summ camping.
 8-) 8-) 8-)


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Hakugei on July 31, 2017, 12:06:32 am
Therefore, maybe increased mana regeneration, around 10-20% for summoners
Keep in mind that this also increases DPS of summoners against buildings by 10-20%; or rather, in terms of time, shields die sooner than before giving teams less time to react/counter a summoner. :mrgreen:
[...] for 1v1 summ vs lego [...] would help with 1v1 balli vs pred situations
The point of the nerf was that people don't use it to kill units; so buffing them to be able to fight units better is the opposite goal. :-D


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Daemon on July 31, 2017, 09:32:05 am
The point of the nerf was that people don't use it to kill units; so buffing them to be able to fight units better is the opposite goal. :-D
It's a buff compared to the new settings, but it's still a nerf compared to the old ones.


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Hakugei on July 31, 2017, 11:01:24 am
If the nerf against units was too strong, so dampen the nerf.
Instead of buff against units at the same time.

The goal was to make siege not attack units (and instead be used for their intended primary targets -> buildings), especially in a camping setting. :roll:
Giving them increased attack speed (=less delay between attacks or bigger turning angle), you're effectively motivating people to camp and kill players again.

Summoner and Ballista received a big nerf, so they definitely need a buff to make up for it - however, look in other categories than "vs units"; e.g. defensive survivability.


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Attila on July 31, 2017, 11:12:26 am
Lego and Pred survive 1 ballista's hit.... maybe above the 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 level :)


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Hakugei on July 31, 2017, 12:49:10 pm
Lego and Pred survive 1 ballista's hit.... maybe above the 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 level :)
Can you elaborate, please?
Do you mean that only higher level units should survive?


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Captain Kenway on July 31, 2017, 02:01:58 pm
Baed improvements, I caent shift+jump anymore and my maein account got locked out on globalignore.
Raelly daeissaproved.


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Daemon on July 31, 2017, 06:08:22 pm
Baed improvements, I caent shift+jump anymore and my maein account got locked out on globalignore.
Raelly daeissaproved.

Kenway on global ignore? Trust me, it's totally Daepproved.


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Seghi on July 31, 2017, 06:55:21 pm
What about this: In the case of balli, the player could exit the siege as usual, but now the balli would not be destroyed, but remain with the hp it had before the exit, in the exact same position. The interesting twist would be as following: taken that the enemy does not kill you or the balli, you can re-enter it with the HP it has left. You can exit/re-enter as many times as you want but your nomad HP does not refill every time. Even more interesting would be to have the possibility to enter someone else's ballista, given that you are a nomad.
This change would allow the following new strategies:
-Enemy could kill separately the balli, whilst the nomad runs. Now given that he is busy with it and the nomad is far in the enemy territory, he could hide for a sneaky garr.
-Extra dynamics involved, by exiting the balli and engaging in meele combat, then back in the balli. This would also increase the need for good nomad skills.
-Medium and badly skilled enemies could be distracted by the nomad, follow him and leave the balli intact, whilst another nomad hidden could take over and push.

This is just an idea that popped in my head right now. No idea what could be done for summs, but I believe this change in ballistas would be quite fun.
Looking forward for some feedback


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Hakugei on July 31, 2017, 07:07:02 pm
I can't shift+jump anymore
What?


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Hakugei on August 05, 2017, 09:34:01 am
Preparing the next test week is taking a little extra time; it's a more substantial edit.


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: SavageBeard on August 21, 2017, 01:47:47 am
Not sure how the summoner defensive buff works, it does seem like too much of a hassle for summoners to actually use it though. I was pestered by some team mates who wanted the buff, but it was unclear what it actually did and was very short lived, and also took away from the offensive true purpose of a summoner.

I also dislike that the defensive buff is on the first slot in the inventory, which automatically equips it after you leap or after you spawn. If this defensive buff should be kept, I would suggest that it is something you can put on allies by just shooting them with the normal attack projectile, or something that emits from the summoner passively.

I would also like the summoner shot to remove buffs from human players if it hits them, i.e. if they lose their mag buff if they are hit by one shot.


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Tjens on August 21, 2017, 10:38:49 am
I was pestered by some team mates who wanted the buff, but it was unclear what it actually did and was very short lived, and also

That would be me trying to explain to you what the new skill does :-P
Tip: You can actually see the weapon's discription when you hover on top of it in the loadout screen.

I agree that it's a little short lived, but it's supposed to encourage teammates to stick around and protect you. By making the energy weapons buff ranged you'll encourage siege camping again, as you can safely buff and attack people from a safe distance, isntead of going forward.

Removing buffs on ranged shot impact might be a little too much gamechanging, as you're basicly nullifying buffs on only one of the opposing sides of the team! I guess you can apply it to both ballista's and summoner shots, but then we'll land on the fact it will only encourage siegecamping more, as staying back and trying to shoot down buffed fighterunits would be a better option that say, actually trying to push towers!



Another take on countering buffs:
Chaplain rays and Shaman protection rays reduce enemy targets buff's efficiency down to 50%.

  • This is a way to effecively counter buffs without touching their core essence, or dumbing them down without having healers around. Buffs need to feel special and pack and punch!
  • Gives healers more presense on the battlefield ergo;
  • Gives commanders more incentive to rechearch healing units, which everybody loves
  • Makes sense in lue of shamans and chaplains being supportive units
  • Makes chaplains somewhat more viable early game, as they actually start off with their firebuff-dehancing ability
  • Finally gives healers a (countering) offensive ability, without losing their supportive core
  • Could lead to stalemates as buffs are (or should be used as) tiebreakers
  • Makes shamans camp buildings in case a legionnaire comes by
  • Chaplains still won't help against gates, beast's third "buff" pool

What are your thoughts on this Savagebeard?



Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Hakugei on August 21, 2017, 12:40:28 pm
Melee belongs on the first slot; unless a unit doesn't have a melee attack.
Leap and block go along with melee as well, as does the automatic-swap-to-first-slot when you leap or block.


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Crashday on August 21, 2017, 11:59:56 pm
nullifying buffs
maybe worth trying out in a future test week: give underused items like immob and snare the ability to nullify buffs ;)


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Tjens on August 22, 2017, 03:19:05 pm
nullifying buffs
maybe worth trying out in a future test week: give underused items like immob and snare the ability to nullify buffs ;)

Hmmm! Snare is a little bit underused, yes, but Immobilizers are lifesavers when dealing with a beherush, or even stopping a maraunding Shagroth or two! Snare is a little underused but giving it a buff-dissabilitating feature might do the opposite. When you think of being immobilised or snared is annoying right now, imagine being unable to move AND being buffless! Everybody will start packing those damned things, the factories won't be able to keep up with demand!


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: SavageBeard on August 22, 2017, 04:04:00 pm
I was pestered by some team mates who wanted the buff, but it was unclear what it actually did and was very short lived, and also

That would be me trying to explain to you what the new skill does :-P
Tip: You can actually see the weapon's discription when you hover on top of it in the loadout screen.

I agree that it's a little short lived, but it's supposed to encourage teammates to stick around and protect you. By making the energy weapons buff ranged you'll encourage siege camping again, as you can safely buff and attack people from a safe distance, isntead of going forward.

Removing buffs on ranged shot impact might be a little too much gamechanging, as you're basicly nullifying buffs on only one of the opposing sides of the team! I guess you can apply it to both ballista's and summoner shots, but then we'll land on the fact it will only encourage siegecamping more, as staying back and trying to shoot down buffed fighterunits would be a better option that say, actually trying to push towers!



Another take on countering buffs:
Chaplain rays and Shaman protection rays reduce enemy targets buff's efficiency down to 50%.

  • This is a way to effecively counter buffs without touching their core essence, or dumbing them down without having healers around. Buffs need to feel special and pack and punch!
  • Gives healers more presense on the battlefield ergo;
  • Gives commanders more incentive to rechearch healing units, which everybody loves
  • Makes sense in lue of shamans and chaplains being supportive units
  • Makes chaplains somewhat more viable early game, as they actually start off with their firebuff-dehancing ability
  • Finally gives healers a (countering) offensive ability, without losing their supportive core
  • Could lead to stalemates as buffs are (or should be used as) tiebreakers
  • Makes shamans camp buildings in case a legionnaire comes by
  • Chaplains still won't help against gates, beast's third "buff" pool

What are your thoughts on this Savagebeard?



Nope, I'm very much against these incremental effects or hidden/hard to percieve effects. It should be very obvious what something does. I.e. either buff vanishes or it doesnt, not a hard-to-appreciate % reduction.


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Hakugei on August 22, 2017, 07:28:40 pm
The current Summoner is likely going to stay for another week.
The Ballista should receive an overhaul (if real life permits) of its current form during this next week.

After that, ballista and summoner are likely to be reverted and tests will focus on the dreaded Behemoth next.

We also have potential Buff test changes and the Newerth poll winners, Chaos Bolt & Chaplain, coming up.


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Bullet on August 22, 2017, 07:59:15 pm
@Hakugei

Sweet! Keep it up, if you can  :-P


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Tjens on August 23, 2017, 10:31:26 am
I was pestered by some team mates who wanted the buff, but it was unclear what it actually did and was very short lived, and also

That would be me trying to explain to you what the new skill does :-P
Tip: You can actually see the weapon's discription when you hover on top of it in the loadout screen.

I agree that it's a little short lived, but it's supposed to encourage teammates to stick around and protect you. By making the energy weapons buff ranged you'll encourage siege camping again, as you can safely buff and attack people from a safe distance, isntead of going forward.

Removing buffs on ranged shot impact might be a little too much gamechanging, as you're basicly nullifying buffs on only one of the opposing sides of the team! I guess you can apply it to both ballista's and summoner shots, but then we'll land on the fact it will only encourage siegecamping more, as staying back and trying to shoot down buffed fighterunits would be a better option that say, actually trying to push towers!



Another take on countering buffs:
Chaplain rays and Shaman protection rays reduce enemy targets buff's efficiency down to 50%.

  • This is a way to effecively counter buffs without touching their core essence, or dumbing them down without having healers around. Buffs need to feel special and pack and punch!
  • Gives healers more presense on the battlefield ergo;
  • Gives commanders more incentive to rechearch healing units, which everybody loves
  • Makes sense in lue of shamans and chaplains being supportive units
  • Makes chaplains somewhat more viable early game, as they actually start off with their firebuff-dehancing ability
  • Finally gives healers a (countering) offensive ability, without losing their supportive core
  • Could lead to stalemates as buffs are (or should be used as) tiebreakers
  • Makes shamans camp buildings in case a legionnaire comes by
  • Chaplains still won't help against gates, beast's third "buff" pool

What are your thoughts on this Savagebeard?



Nope, I'm very much against these incremental effects or hidden/hard to percieve effects. It should be very obvious what something does. I.e. either buff vanishes or it doesnt, not a hard-to-appreciate % reduction.

Ofcourse any effects or buff reductions should be accompanied by some sort of visual indicator, just like any other feature in the game! This can be done by changing the color, size and shape of any buffs being targeted. Mag buffs de-buffs can be communicated by reducing the number of rings hovering around the unit, adding more transparency and even changing the red hue to have more saturation for instance.

Maybe debuffed units should be given a second indicator to further communicate it's effectiveness is being halved, like also adding the current shaman ray-hit indicator on friendly units to effected enemies aswell. I agree it should always be clear when any effect is active in the visual gameworld, hidden effects are the worst! So you're totally right about that.




Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Marbello on September 04, 2017, 07:44:43 am
It takes now 2 bali shots to kill a mudent :/


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Daemon on September 04, 2017, 10:35:10 am
It's going to be reverted tonight. Sorry, I was on holidays and stuff.


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: SavageBeard on September 12, 2017, 09:25:14 pm
If I can vote I would say that siege not being able to one-hit kill vs. higher levels should be kept in the core game.


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Hakugei on September 13, 2017, 12:43:06 pm
Thank you for posting.
Feedback like this will help decide which test changes will return and which discarded permanently.


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Necrophiliac on September 14, 2017, 07:03:58 pm
Anything that reduces the chances of being killed in one hit is a good thing for the game *cough* electric buff. However, I think they will need to be buffed if this idea goes into action. Just giving them a knock back feature, reducing enemy speed, extra health or more building damage should even out the balance. I didn't play during these test weeks, so I don't know how the changes turned out but from my imagination siege will be pretty shit unless they get something in return.


Title: Re: Gameplay changes test month
Post by: Hakugei on September 14, 2017, 08:52:53 pm
That is true, if you only flat out nerf siege units, they'd be useless to camp and useless to push out as well.
During the test weeks, they got some things in return - both ballista and summoner had compensations.

Behemoth is the next victim, but even that dreaded unit gets something else in return instead of a flat nerf.

Unfortunately, feedback has been very lacking, so who knows if the compensations properly balanced out the nerf. :wink: