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Archive => Server Forum => Topic started by: Bullet on October 23, 2014, 02:49:23 pm



Title: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Bullet on October 23, 2014, 02:49:23 pm
Hello everyone. This will be a quite long post, so bear with me, or just skip to the bottom if you're lazy. What make me write this post i i just got kicked without valid reason at all, from Groentjuh's server.

I have trouble seeing how the culture in the community have evolved on the Europe server lately. I see certain players talk alot of "shit" and people are beeing relatively free-spoken, without refs doing anything about it.

A typical conversation in chat can be like:
X: Shut up motherfucker!
Y: you crying?
Z: x, you're a retard. 
X: Go suck a cock, z.

... And the ref wont do anything, not a single warning to anyone of them to calm down and talk more friendly, or a warning about "mute".
Of course, this is situation related, and sometimes the ref might have a point, explaining his lack of action with: "It just lasts 2 minutes, then everyon's forgotten about it".
Sometimes conversations like these happens for fun, like A: "hey dude, did you blow x' mom earlier?" and Z might say: "Nah, she wasn't hot enough". And x is like " you woulnd't even get close her". The last example can be considered joking, but refs must be aware that verbal communication on the internett can be mis-interpreted, and what was a joke, is not funny and vice versa.  If someone yells "Hey, thats an insult", refs SHOULD REACT.   I see refs that doesn't do that, refs that barely chat at all, and doesn't use the power they have enough.

I think it's fair to say that a good ref isn't only a judge, but also someone who have the responsible attitude towards the gaming community in this game. Do you wanna be the ref, allowing "tricky sitations", to just pass by, without doing anything? In my opinion, that's a passive ref, and in one way, a bad ref. Take a minute to think about it.

I also fear that the in-game community on the Europe server might be affected by the attitude of the american attitude on Leet. No offense to the american players who are fair and seem like grown-up people, but there is some immature players among you which I will consider rotten fruit in a gaming culture. On the otherside however, Savage has a small playerbase an we need everyone to keep this game we all love, alive.

Today i joined a game on the map xr_quests which many players have a hate/love attitude towards. 2 players in particular, with the support of a guy with a demo icon (his name was "/name") was in T2, and exploited heavely with a exploit sub, and eventually captured  both flags (shouldn't be possible), and won the game. During this event, both me and several in T1 protested heavely, and tried to kick "Captain Kenway" (encouraged exploiting, calling me cunt in chat and so on ..) and the comm of t2, "xr_firsttimeplayer (unique)".  Due to the many restarts earlier on this map, it was implicitly understood that only arsenal/nexus exploit should be allowed (we had mentioned it many times in chat, and many agreed). However, T2 exploited heavely and won the game.
Now we get to the core problem "team-exploit-dilemma" : When T1 tried to kick a t2 player, of course the whole t2  f2. There's no appliable punishment for a whole team that exploits, and when no ref is on spot, there is noone to give warnings or kick/slay people that dont follow rules. That game ruined  the fun for T1, and we didn't have any power to stop it.  At the end, when we came to the awards, Gridfon (ref) came on. Ofcourse we told him about what happened, but he wouldn't take a stand against any of it and did nothing against t2 comm. 
Now, that's a dilemma. The questions is : How can you encourage people to play fair, without the ref beeing there? 

The problem is divided in my opinion, first off all,  the refs must be more consistent when he is present (dunno if it's the right word for it), and more direct towards players that behave "on the limit". With a playerbase that grows smaller over the years, we must try to remain the good, grown-up, newbie friendly culture among player in-game. However, a smaller playerbase means more "small-games" with 15 v 15 on the server, and more tolerance towards diffent people, as we have to play with the same guys over and over, game after game. Gridfon (ref) told me today in a /msg: "Dont feed the trolls...". That's a quote that tells quite a lot about the culture ingame today, in Savage.

I think it's time for a cleanup, and send big, fat warning towards the trolls that you ruin other peoples fun. Because decent, and grown-up players will quit playing this game if people cant behave in-game.

I want, since we cant kick them (IP-change someway, another account), some sort of publication of those players. Players in the publication can ofcourse not just be written up there. Proof must be shown, and approved by refs reading the forum or admins on this page (?). The only thing that comes to my mind is a hall-of-loosers.

Second, people should be encouraged some way be more friendly in-game, independet if ref is present or not. How this can be achived and  encouraged, is a question I dont know the answer to, but suggestions are appreciated. What I do know, is that we need it.

Note: I was very pissed when I wrote this post, none the less, it doesn't make me wrong in my cause.

And to Amy (the former mapadming who lost her right, yes I have to mention that because i'm angry) , if you ever read this - You dont kick me again for joining specs, not a very valid kick. I expected better attitude than that from you.





Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Moxy on October 23, 2014, 04:00:12 pm
I Hope you realize for the past month, there has been no refs full stop for the European server due to the security risks with accounts.

Infact even now, there is only 3, Myself and DRK and grifdon

Due to the security issues with the accounts we couldn't risk handing out ref pwd's.

Things are starting to change now and refs are slowly starting to come back but until this sunday just gone, there had been no refs full stop. no one to police the server. pleas bear that in mind when saying that refs just ignore people like you describe. unfortunately we hadn't had the power to deal with those type of people. the majority of refs still don't.

The refs are slowly starting to come back now so you should start to notice a difference but it will take time to sort all accounts out.


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Hakugei on October 23, 2014, 04:22:41 pm
So US refs overreact and EU refs underact?
As I keep saying, humans can't handle responsibility.
Humans make bad refs and bad admins.

I want, since we cant kick them (IP-change someway, another account), some sort of publication of those players. Players in the publication can ofcourse not just be written up there. Proof must be shown, and approved by refs reading the forum or admins on this page (?). The only thing that comes to my mind is a hall-of-loosers.
What would be the point? While there hasn't been an official list, gossip and rumor has spread just like in any other society so certain undesirables are known (e.g. Mein, Rin, Jmz, etc...the "list" can get quite long, especially if you count inactive players, too). But what does this list actually accomplish? They still get to play, and they still get to do their shenanigans until caught in the act all over again. Just to shame them? No worries; they constantly shame themselves already. :-D

Second, people should be encouraged some way be more friendly in-game, independet if ref is present or not. How this can be achived and  encouraged, is a question I dont know the answer to, but suggestions are appreciated. What I do know, is that we need it.
That is true for every and all communities, real life and virtual.
The problem here is that humans are pathetic creatures. ;) There is no real way to force them to be nice.
And bad behavior is a lot more contagious than good behavior, simply because the human mind and human selfish mindset is a lot more responsive to negative influences.
If you do figure out a way to, I suggest you patent the idea and sell it to every online game ever made - you'll be rich!



Also, keep in mind, a ref cannot punish someone for something that they were not around for.
If no ref was present, you'll need to contact the server admin and report the ongoing to him directly to take disciplinary action.
(Okay, I'm talking about the EU server, because we all know Jmz won't do a thing for the US server unless he has something to gain.)
Refs for immediate action; server admin for post- and long-term action.


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Captain Kenway on October 23, 2014, 04:58:53 pm
What are you Kaizer, 12 year old? You shouldnt even  be playing a PEGI 18 game, for all the violence, bad manners and sexual themes.

You need to sit down and chillax, Games are for entertainment, to have fun, not for kids like you to cramp up and make a drama and attention search.

Be a good LAD, and ease the fok in mate.

with love from
aboard the pirateship


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Amy on October 23, 2014, 05:08:35 pm
I assure you that the one who kicked you wasn't me, someone else knows my pw and i sent a pm to groent about this a week ago, but he didn't reply :(


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Hakugei on October 23, 2014, 05:41:47 pm
What are you Kaizer, 12 year old? You shouldnt even  be playing a PEGI 18 game, for all the violence, bad manners and sexual themes.

Those ratings are for the game, not for the players.
And adult ratings do not justify bad behavior. At all.
(Also, I don't think Savage has an 18 age rating. :-D Not enough sex.)


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Bullet on October 23, 2014, 05:44:39 pm
I Hope you realize for the past month, there has been no refs full stop for the European server due to the security risks with accounts.

Things are starting to change now and refs are slowly starting to come back but until this sunday just gone, there had been no refs full stop. no one to police the server. pleas bear that in mind when saying that refs just ignore people like you describe. unfortunately we hadn't had the power to deal with those type of people. the majority of refs still don't. (e.g Grifdon)

Thx for fast answer. I know that, and that might explain how it have became so bad so fast. It proves that refs are important today. Hopefully more refs will be more online soon.

So US refs overreact and EU refs underact?
I didn't say that, but yes, thats the logical interpretation of it. EU refs are used to good behavioer among players, but US refs I don't have much personal knowledge about, I don't know how they behave when trolls invade the game.

What would be the point? While there hasn't been an official list, gossip and rumor has spread just like in any other society so certain undesirables are known (e.g. Mein, Rin, Jmz, etc...the "list" can get quite long, especially if you count inactive players, too). But what does this list actually accomplish? They still get to play, and they still get to do their shenanigans until caught in the act all over again. Just to shame them? No worries; they constantly shame themselves already. :-D
There's not a thing we can do to prevent kids/trolls/immature people from playing, for some ammount of time, i.e 3 days, a week, a month ?

The problem here is that humans are pathetic creatures. ;) There is no real way to force them to be nice.
Shouldn't prevent the "good" community from trying to allways achieve a good community. We should have a fairlpay award ingame... some sort of.

Also, keep in mind, a ref cannot punish someone for something that they were not around for.
If no ref was present, you'll need to contact the server admin and report the ongoing to him directly to take disciplinary action.
Refs for immediate action; server admin for post- and long-term action.

Yes, I'm aware of that. That's a weakness, but a principle I understand, you cant judge something you haven't seen. Should be made possible for refs to see chat-log from last round while ingame, in my opinion. Demo-file could also be possible, but not a ref in the world would take the time to go out of game just to see a dispute between 2 guys 5 or 1 games ago, no matter the size of the dispute.

What are you Kaizer, 12 year old? You shouldnt even  be playing a PEGI 18 game, for all the violence, bad manners and sexual themes.
I hate to ruin your brilliant arguments Tushaar, but Savage is actually rated for 12-year olds.  (http://goo.gl/hee4ro)

On topic for you tushaar, if you change behaviour in-game, we might be able to play with each other with a friendly tone. But you don't earn my respect by exploiting and ruining for a whole team's fun. Also, calling people "cunt" (among other things) doesn't exactly encourage friendly replies from other people. Take a minute to think how people percieve you as a player in-game, and I might consider talking to you again. Till then, avoid me.

I assure you that the one who kicked you wasn't me, someone else knows my pw and i sent a pm to groent about this a week ago, but he didn't reply :(
Yes, I couldn't possibly know that when i wrote the post. Thanks for informing, though :)


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Nightmare on November 08, 2014, 06:15:35 am
You'll often see a lot of inaction or overaction from refs on US simply because it's a very "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of attitude towards refs there. I once joined mid game and was bombarded by several people asking me to kick someone who exploited before I got there. I told them that I couldn't kick someone for something I didn't see and half the server agreed and the other half thought I was the worst ref ever. That's pretty much how most situations end up (outside of clear cut mutes/kicks). You're never going to have 100% of people agree with you and the side that doesn't agree has a decent chance of harassing the ref that chose to act/not act. The monkeys are going to throw shit at each other, I see no reason to stand up and say "Hey, you didn't get any on me yet."

Also, as far as policing people's language, I can't believe I have to say this but: It's the internet. Words can't hurt you. There's no such thing as "bad words" unless you let them bother you.  Yeah, if someone is targeting someone for verbal harassment, that's worthy of a mute (since no one knows how to use /ignore), but otherwise there's no reason why refs should have to be Profanity Police.


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Hakugei on November 08, 2014, 08:05:31 am
[...] "damned if you do, damned if you don't" [...] You're never going to have 100% of people agree with you and the side that doesn't agree has a decent chance of harassing the ref that chose to act/not act.
Ref-ing should never be about this.
If you're influenced, at all, by someone disliking or disagreeing, you shouldn't be a ref.
This counts for every position of authority and responsibility.

"There will always be someone disagreeing" and "Damned if I do, damned if I don't" are poor excuses used to justify bad decisions, and entirely irrelevant for your responsibility and actions.
Because at the end of the day, you should be able to make a clever decision based on reasoning alone.

If it's too much for someone to handle, simply resign and walk away.
A bad ref is not better than no ref; and there won't be a potentially better replacement if the ref slot(s) are filled.


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Nightmare on November 08, 2014, 02:23:34 pm
If you're influenced, at all, by someone disliking or disagreeing, you shouldn't be a ref.
This counts for every position of authority and responsibility.

You take this shit too seriously man. It's a volunteer position in a mostly dead game.  I'm not going to give the children that make up the community an excuse to flip their shit if action doesn't need to be taken and 9/10, it doesn't.  Though I will admit, watching people lose their minds over a mute or a kick is highly entertaining.

"There will always be someone disagreeing" and "Damned if I do, damned if I don't" are poor excuses used to justify bad decisions, and entirely irrelevant for your responsibility and actions.
Because at the end of the day, you should be able to make a clever decision based on reasoning alone.

If it's too much for someone to handle, simply resign and walk away.
A bad ref is not better than no ref; and there won't be a potentially better replacement if the ref slot(s) are filled.

Again, you talk about reffing Savage like it's a super important, high risk, paid authoritative position. It's not. A ref is not a babysitter which is really what most of the people in the community need.

And as far as "a bad ref is better than no ref"...oh boy, you don't know how wrong you are.  You should have played on the US server when WD was ref haha.


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Hakugei on November 08, 2014, 03:16:56 pm
Thank you for proving my point.
You don't take it serious enough. :-D
You don't understand that precisely because it is an undead game you need to put in more effort to not make it worse.
You may notice that the US server has fewer players than ever - the shenanigans and abuse of US refs and US server admin have finally caught up with you.
You can try hiding your incompetence and ignorance behind clichès like "chill, man, it's just a (dead) game", but it doesn't change any of the facts you so desperately wish to ignore.
Volunteer position does not equate to consequence-less justified abuse for own personal gain.
The only reason so many abusive US refs still have their position is because the server admin himself abuses whatever he can get his hands on - expecting him to clean up his ref team would be nonsensical foolery.

I've been on the US server as no refs were around (a few weeks ago; more than once); it was a peaceful and pleasant experience.
However, the days before and after that were a Nightmare (oh, suddenly your nickname makes sense) thanks to refs.

Humans are not capable of handling responsibility, and would much rather hide behind excuses and ignorance than face the nightmarish truth head-on. You are certainly no exception.

Now, if you have nothing intelligent to say, please stop trying to make excuses - it's disgusting.
It's not even clear if you even understand these basic principles in the first place, or just choose to ignore them out of convenience.
Thank you.


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Mr_Matt on November 09, 2014, 11:03:21 am
some people like the drama, why punish minor verbal problems on an already small player base


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Captain Kenway on November 09, 2014, 09:08:19 pm
some people like the drama, why punish minor verbal problems on an already small player base

Agreed mate :)


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: BrownAle on November 10, 2014, 01:49:24 am
You can try hiding your incompetence and ignorance (...) the server admin himself abuses whatever he can get his hands on (...)
Humans are not capable of handling responsibility, and would much rather hide behind excuses and ignorance than face the nightmarish truth head-on. You are certainly no exception (...) stop trying to make excuses - it's disgusting.

How the heck is this guy still an admin?

However I completely agree with Bullet about the bad chat culture on our servers. It's worse than the Youtube comment section (!). Unfortunately I don't think refs can change that because as Nightmare already pointed out, every ref action will cause more discussing and drama. If you wanne do something against all the brainless hate and contempt in this game, you got two options:

Talk back, start discussing with them and reveal their studpidity to everyone (and maybe it will lead to a successful kick or mute vote)
or
leave the game and let it die (no game, no chat, no hate).



Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Gridfon on November 10, 2014, 05:21:28 am
How the heck is this guy still an admin?

It might not be clearly visible from outside of the admin/development team, but Hakugei has done a huge amount of work on Savage over the past couple of months. Usually those are the things that no other admins or developers have skills, time or motivation to do. And ironically, that accounts for the most things that have to be done.

Hakugei was promoted to admin in order to sort out the mess caused by JmZ's script, and to make sure that a situation like this is unlikely to happen again. His promotion is backed by all other admins. However, I'm pretty sure he'll resign from being an admin again very soon, if not quit the development team altogether.

All in all, it would be more constructive to try and convince Hakugei to accept more power and do more things, rather than try to get rid of him. More things will get accomplished this way.  :mrgreen:


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Hakugei on November 10, 2014, 06:42:50 am
Me being admin does not even hold any relevance for this topic.
You know I'm right, you just don't like it. :roll:


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: BrownAle on November 10, 2014, 09:01:30 am
Me being admin does not even hold any relevance for this topic.

Randomly throwing shit at people is what this topic is about. That's exactly what you just did with Nightmare.

Hakugei has done a huge amount of work on Savage over the past couple of months
(...)
All in all, it would be more constructive to try and convince Hakugei to accept more power and do more things.

Hitler built the Autobahn and did alot of good things for German economy. Was it therefore ok to let him reign?


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Hakugei on November 10, 2014, 09:12:18 am
So you didn't actually read and understand what I said...
Too bad.


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: BrownAle on November 10, 2014, 09:17:30 am
I did. You verbally attacked NM after he explained his reluctance to take care of every braindead flamer in the game. But he was right. Muting stupid people will cause more stupid people to act stupid and therefore would be deconstructive. Too bad you didn't see that.

Insulting NM for explaining himiself in the harsh way you did is just like randomly kicking around in my eyes. But whatever, I'm not gonna join your shittalk argument today.


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Daemon on November 10, 2014, 11:03:47 am
Hakugei has done a huge amount of work on Savage over the past couple of months
(...)
All in all, it would be more constructive to try and convince Hakugei to accept more power and do more things.

Hitler built the Autobahn and did alot of good things for German economy. Was it therefore ok to let him reign?

So besides laboring for a community that hates him, despite his better judgement, simply having opinions makes him a genocidal nazi maniac?

And i guess telling Amy she's got sand in her vagina is cool coming from you, and it's not throwing shit at people. If it were up to me, i would ban you per siempre cuz of that.


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Hakugei on November 10, 2014, 11:53:05 am
You didn't understand a thing. :-(
Please stop wasting my time, Ale, you're still not worth it.
You're still sore that I ruined your egotistical fun in the past and there was nothing you could do about it.

As for the topic at hand:
Refs need to be able to handle the stress while making reason-based decisions.
If they cannot do either for whatever reason, they're not a good ref.
Any ref that fails to do so is allowed to walk away easily as it is just a volunteer position - this is perfectly fine.
What isn't acceptable, however, is to fail upholding your responsibility and use "volunteer" as an excuse to continue making bad decisions or even intentionally abusing your power for yourself.
And thus, I have no reason to be nice to someone like that.
e.g. people like Nightmare and Ale.  :mrgreen:
You do not deserve friendliness, so please do not expect any.
Using excuses to justify abuse is disgusting. :-)


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Hakugei on November 10, 2014, 02:14:09 pm
~Ale's flaming post has been deleted.~
Next time it's a ban. <3

  • Flaming & Bashing
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Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Bullet on November 10, 2014, 03:50:22 pm
  • Flaming & Bashing
    Hate posts and personal attacks will not be tolerated on the Newerth Boards. Treat others on these message boards as you would expect them to treat you. Talking trash about another user or posting topics specifically to provoke a negative response from an individual, a group or an entire community is not acceptable on the Newerth Boards. These posts will be deleted and will result in a ban.

    Board bashing is also not allowed on the Newerth Boards. Please respect the various communities on the Newerth Boards system. If another board is not your favorite, there's no need to complain about it. Simply refrain from visiting it. Board bashing posts will be deleted.
       
  • Trolling
    We are all entitled to our opinions and that may included negative opinions about a console/game/anything else, but if you are knowingly or purposely posting to incite anger/negativity on the board or from the community, you will be banned for trolling. These boards are meant for meaningful discussions and debates, not a place for you to start trouble. Be mindful.
Hakugei: You're right. A good ref doesn't care about the "dammn if... dammn it not" dilemma. He is consequent, and does what his reason tells him to do. If he recieves constructive critique later for his actions, he should consider resigning his positions.

How come there is such good rules and management of trollers and flamers on newerth.com and not ingame? It's a good question.

With that beeing said, I dont have anything against Ale who got his post removed (?)

Answer to Nightmare: The second you adjust the ideal refere role to the community, you've lost. If community is bad and trollig, and you as a result of that, quit muting trollers on the server because you think: "It's a part of the game, everybody does it on the internett". Well guess what, Savage's playerbase is DYING and there will be less new players likely to join the game with it consisting of trollers and flammers. Maybe you like the entertainment and creative insults in the chat, but most people don't like it if they're the one recieving it. Also, Savage's advertising funds ain't exactly "rich", so get your head together and start reflection on your in-game behavior. A nice community is more important than good gameplayer trailers on youtube.


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Hakugei on November 10, 2014, 03:53:01 pm
Newerth is, for the most part, not associated with any of the servers.
So rules are unique to one another.

Also, rules matter not if there are no people to enforce them, more so if it has come to pass that rule ignoring/breaking is an acceptable thing. Thus, rules are pointless if there is nothing backing them up.


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Bullet on November 10, 2014, 04:09:35 pm
Newerth is, for the most part, not associated with any of the servers.
So rules are unique to one another.

Of course. But if you compare the 2 "societies", they got several similiarties. Everyone is logged in to it, but have people in power of removing rule breakers (The executives) and some "law makers" in form of administrators (The legislate).  Difference is, on newerth.com I find the people here to be mostly nice and friendly, and admins/moderators are more consequently in their action against flammers/trollers. However, also way easier to see proof for "illegal" actions. In-game, it's way harder to prove someone did somehting, unless ref was/is present when something happened. Also, people are in-game for fun, and here they are for discussion. But in-game is just as important to keep "clean", considering people play the game for fun. And rule breakers = less/no fun.  If people can't play the game anymore and have fun, we've lost.


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Haika on November 10, 2014, 04:53:21 pm
How the heck is this guy still an admin?

It might not be clearly visible from outside of the admin/development team, but Hakugei has done a huge amount of work on Savage over the past couple of months. Usually those are the things that no other admins or developers have skills, time or motivation to do. And ironically, that accounts for the most things that have to be done.

Hakugei was promoted to admin in order to sort out the mess caused by JmZ's script, and to make sure that a situation like this is unlikely to happen again. His promotion is backed by all other admins. However, I'm pretty sure he'll resign from being an admin again very soon, if not quit the development team altogether.

All in all, it would be more constructive to try and convince Hakugei to accept more power and do more things, rather than try to get rid of him. More things will get accomplished this way.  :mrgreen:

Griffon, there are few times i second you, but despite your shait job at your once senseless reffing, i gotta say that you have a point.

If hakugei left i wouldnt blame him tbh. Im trying to show my gratitude and i appreciate what he does to help the game, and if he does something behind the scene im sure it has a positive impact. However people in savage in general dont appreciate, and take for granted. From my understanding if haku leaves the developing, it will stop. If i understand right i hope to have you on the ship as long as possible.


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Nightmare on November 12, 2014, 02:03:33 am
Strange, all I did was explain my view and rather than give me a reasonable response, I'm treated to post after post of thinly veiled insults suggesting that I am irresponsible, unintelligent, a ref abuser (hard to do that when I don't play and when I do, I don't even use ref unless necessary), egotistical (guilty), and "neglecting my duty".  So you quote the part of the rules about personal attacks and cite it as a reason to delete Ale's post (I don't care about that, I didn't even see it), and yet in your posts you directly insult me on several occasions.  That's just immature and hypocritical.

You have no base to judge my reffing and certainly no evidence to make it out like the problems on the US server are my fault (I barely play), you've never seen me ref and I only outlined one example where I didn't take action which was the correct choice as I cannot kick people based on hearsay.  If I kicked or muted people every time someone came to me and said "He did this, she did that!" then there would be no point to having refs.  I even said that I still mute if the flaming has escalated to personal attacks, but I'm not going to mute someone for every curse word.  Exploiters are still kicked swiftly and without warning unless they are nubs (though that is rare).  If you are seeing ref abuse on the US server, then insult those refs, not someone you've never even seen in game.

In summary, your accusations about me were unfounded, without merit, and a very poor showing of immaturity that I didn't expect from an admin.


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Bullet on December 05, 2014, 11:16:58 pm
Got an idea to counter trolls. Would enabeling VOIP decrease the amount of trolling? I think so. Ofc. I am aware the current problem with VOIP on mac-clients (they crash). However,  my theory is that VOIP would make the players feel less anonymous. Like commenting bullshit on the internett is harder to do when u represent it with your full name. VOIP have that effect aswell I think, because people get the feeling they're talking to someone in a more personal way than for instance, chatting. Also, critique of the trolls can be told trough VOIP, and have a good effect.   Just a thought, ofc. its not possible to enable is as long as the mac- problem excists, however, I hope this might be an issue the devs (if there is any left), can prioritize this now.


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: DarknesS on December 19, 2014, 10:27:52 am
Make it so that
- Player joining can't call a vote for 60 seconds
- Player joining can only write 1 chat line, 2 after 20 seconds,... (increase spam limit slowly)
- Players joining can't vote on votes in progress
- Refs can temporarily disable joining from a certain ip range

Should be rather easy changes (1-3) and make trolling a lot less fun after being kicked.


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Storky on February 23, 2015, 12:56:21 pm
Not the best idea to clean dying community of trolls and try to make difference between trolls and gameruiners.
Most noble trolls not changing nick and can be easily ignored, but if player switching /name its hard to do.

Do newbies care about trolls - they even dont read chat, they just care about gameplay and how much meat playing on the server.
60 peoples at evening made laugh my friends, when I tried to seduce them to play Savage :mrgreen:

Conclusion: kicking peoples even if they are trolls killing our community.
Better keep fighting vs bad guys who abusing weakness of kicking, muting, changing names to ruin the matches.

p.s. f1 for  proposition by Darkness


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: jazzking on February 23, 2015, 04:24:11 pm
They can laugh if the waynt but ask them how many fps games they know of with 72 people in a single game.


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: DarkStar on February 23, 2015, 07:04:40 pm
They can laugh if the waynt but ask them how many fps games they know of with 72 people in a single game.

There aren't any. Savage isn't just a FPS :D


Title: Re: Refs power, gaming culture on Europe server and the team-exploit dilemma
Post by: Daemon on February 23, 2015, 07:19:44 pm
It's a MMORTSSFPS3rdPOG. That's why we got so few players. Nobody searches for that.