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Savage: XR is a new patch for Savage, created by the Newerth.com staff. The XR1.1 Client is out now! Download it now!
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Author Topic: XR 1.3.1 Patch (17-4-2017)  (Read 4426 times)
Hakugei
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« on: April 17, 2017, 03:34:37 am »

Patchnotes 1.3.1

Major:
  • Revamped Auto_Work (aka _auto_attack) feature
    • _auto_attack can no longer be used for combat and instead has received an overhaul to focus on speeding up mining and building without the need to spam-click
    • Auto_work will only trigger successfully if you're standing in front of a mine (to mine) or an allied building (to build/repair)
    • Auto_work deals no damage and cannot be used for combat
    • If you attempt to mix auto_work with regular attack to increase your combat speed, which people have been doing, you will run into issues like inconsistent animations and missed hits, thus negating any advantage you thought you would have as a result of it
      • If you are experiencing this issue, I suggest using clean binds via the options menu
    • The options menu has been adjusted accordingly
    • Auto_work, compared to pre-patch, is now faster than before as well (via shorter delays), making the tedious powermining considerably easier
    • Use Auto Work for mining and building; use regular attack for combat

Minor:
  • Dead players can no longer pick up goodies
  • Added GS Command !random <object/null> <min> <max>
    • Randomed value stored in cvar gs_count
  • Added "Status in Userlist" in options menu (game category)
    • This colours players in the userlist according to their game- & server-related status
    • Referee = Red, Commander = Green, Acting Officer = Cyan, Officer = Blue, Normal = White
    • cvar cl_showSpecialStatusInUserlist
  • Added "Userlist XP Column" dropdown to options menu (game category)
    • GUID, UID, and Index do exactly what you think they do, inspired by Version (existing cl_showSEPVersionInUserlist)
    • cvars cl_showGUIDInUserlist, cl_showUIDInUserlist, cl_showIndexInUserlist
    • For anyone that cares, but mainly for devs, server admins, referees, testers, and debuggers
  • Removed obsolete old settings in the options menu


As always, we appreciate feedback and reports.
This is the first draft of the new Auto Work feature and it is up for potential improvements, adjustments, and alternative changes.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 05:47:10 pm by Hakugei » Logged
Brad_Troika
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« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2017, 06:31:28 pm »

Auto-attack has some issues, sometimes it only attacks once and you have to press it again to successfully toggle it.
If someone comes into your cross-hair, it stops immediately which is annoying. A 1 second delay would be great, but even half a second should make it smoother imho.
You can also toggle auto-attack when attacking grimms, but you don't do any damage.

Personally I would like an auto-attack when attacking enemy structures, although not with the speed the current auto attack uses.
Another thing is that by pressing R again the auto attacking doesn't stop, to cancel it you have to look away, which is not intuitive/uncomfortable.

And a small thing: cashes/altars dropped on sharp edges like the walls on kinixxx become invincible because you can't hit them.
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Hakugei
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« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2017, 07:20:59 pm »

Auto-attack has some issues, sometimes it only attacks once and you have to press it again to successfully toggle it.
If you move your crosshair away from aiming at the closest point, that will happen.
That's not a real "issue", as it's merely because people aren't used to aiming for mining (yet everything else in the game requires aim). It may take some time to get used to actually having to aim.

If someone comes into your cross-hair, it stops immediately which is annoying. A 1 second delay would be great, but even half a second should make it smoother imho.
There already is a short delay, but this probably needs adjustments and improvements to make it more comfortable.

You can also toggle auto-attack when attacking grimms, but you don't do any damage.
Personally I would like an auto-attack when attacking enemy structures, although not with the speed the current auto attack uses.
This is obviously intentional, as Auto_work is for working (mining, building, and repairing) and not for attacking. Huh
The entire issue with auto_attack was that it could be used for attacking, so allowing it to be used for attacking is exactly what this is supposed to prevent.

Another thing is that by pressing R again the auto attacking doesn't stop, to cancel it you have to look away, which is not intuitive/uncomfortable.
Also intentional; if you want the game to do the work for you, you're going to be committed to it.
Changes can be made, we just need to decide which.



The problem is, lowering any of the intentional restrictions makes the entire thing pointless and might as well remove auto_attack entirely instead.
So we need to discuss the options and wishes some more to design a form that most people will be satisfied with.
Please continue discussing and planning. Afro
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Brad_Troika
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« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2017, 09:43:05 pm »

Auto-attack has some issues, sometimes it only attacks once and you have to press it again to successfully toggle it.
If you move your crosshair away from aiming at the closest point, that will happen.
That's not a real "issue", as it's merely because people aren't used to aiming for mining (yet everything else in the game requires aim). It may take some time to get used to actually having to aim.
This might be the issue of bad aiming and although I thought that it wasn't I can't reproduce it.

You can also toggle auto-attack when attacking grimms, but you don't do any damage.
Personally I would like an auto-attack when attacking enemy structures, although not with the speed the current auto attack uses.
This is obviously intentional, as Auto_work is for working (mining, building, and repairing) and not for attacking. Huh
The entire issue with auto_attack was that it could be used for attacking, so allowing it to be used for attacking is exactly what this is supposed to prevent.

I thought the issue was that it was abused. Nevertheless if attacking grimms shouldn't be done with auto-attack then while targeting a grimm I shouldn't be able to toggle it but currently I can.
Attacking enemy structures using auto-attack is a convenience. While using the current speed would be unbalanced I would still like to be able to use auto-attack.

Another thing is that by pressing R again the auto attacking doesn't stop, to cancel it you have to look away, which is not intuitive/uncomfortable.
Also intentional; if you want the game to do the work for you, you're going to be committed to it.
Changes can be made, we just need to decide which.

This is a minor point for me since currently the reason I find it strange might be that its new but I'm interested in why it was changed intentionally.
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Hakugei
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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2017, 09:53:08 pm »

I thought the issue was that it was abused.
Yeah, for any and all combat. :p Attacking enemy buildings (with and without enemies around) still classifies as combat.
Nevertheless if attacking grimms shouldn't be done with auto-attack then while targeting a grimm I shouldn't be able to toggle it but currently I can.
I agree, that is indeed weird.
But that is because a neutral building relies on being hittable (but not damage) to trigger a lot of potential secondary effects.
This current inbetween is ugly.

Attacking enemy structures using auto-attack is a convenience. While using the current speed would be unbalanced I would still like to be able to use auto-attack.
I've heard both sides of this many times already.
Some people say auto_attacking an enemy building should be a thing, and the other side calls them lazy for wanting this. Grin

This is a minor point for me since currently the reason I find it strange might be that its new but I'm interested in why it was changed intentionally.
I think I can change this, but the idea behind it is that mining and building is used by afks and lazy people, which is the opposite of combat and people manually doing the work themselves.
Ergo, it shouldn't be as variable as people who actually put in effort.
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Brad_Troika
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2017, 10:35:13 pm »

Attacking enemy structures using auto-attack is a convenience. While using the current speed would be unbalanced I would still like to be able to use auto-attack.
I've heard both sides of this many times already.
Some people say auto_attacking an enemy building should be a thing, and the other side calls them lazy for wanting this. Grin

I'm ok with being lazy. Mashing left mouse button is not fun imho.

This is a minor point for me since currently the reason I find it strange might be that its new but I'm interested in why it was changed intentionally.
I think I can change this, but the idea behind it is that mining and building is used by afks and lazy people, which is the opposite of combat and people manually doing the work themselves.
Ergo, it shouldn't be as variable as people who actually put in effort.

I myself use it for being afk but I don't see how that change would make it harder/less effective?

I have a demo that shows me building a garr. When I approach the garr I pressed R and it only produced one attack. Pressing it again toggled it. (https://ufile.io/a4gn7).
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Hakugei
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2017, 02:52:36 am »

I myself use it for being afk but I don't see how that change would make it harder/less effective?
Not during, just less fluent after.

I have a demo that shows me building a garr. When I approach the garr I pressed R and it only produced one attack. Pressing it again toggled it. (https://ufile.io/a4gn7).
You were definitely aiming at the garrison.
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Femto
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2017, 04:11:36 pm »

The new auto_work is a usability nightmare; it's implemented very poorly. There's no real incentive for having any of the aforementioned restrictions. The entire premise behind the change is dubious at best. To put it bluntly, the restrictions feel very artificial and, perhaps more importantly, counterintuitive. You're not going to magically become the brand new melee king, the Shagroth killer, because you shaved off a couple of milliseconds between swings. One would really have to question the sanity of the people who pushed for the change, especially considering the fact that virtually any modern computer mouse comes with software suites that allow one to write extremely meticulous macros. Rolleyes   

If the "issue" is deemed to be really important, then perhaps a better way to implement auto_work is to allow it to do its handiwork if there's a valid target, unobstructed by terrain/props/units, within proximity, without forcing you to *actually* aim at the target. Implementing auto_work in said way would also allow for using auto_work even if you're aiming at a friendly unit (there's no friendly fire in Savage, so the hit isn't "consumed"), rather than the intended auto_work target, but the unit's swing would otherwise hit the auto_work target. Whereas normal attacks work as intended in said scenario, auto_work fails; and that's simply goofy.
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Daemon
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2017, 05:46:35 pm »

Thank you for the effort it took for you to post such a detailed report. In turn, i shall clichee you to death: we're working on it, improving it based on player feedback, such as what you posted yourself. But it's true. Heads are butting, tests are running, and no later than tonight, patches are uploading.

[edit] It was about 15% faster swing gains, not mere milliseconds Smiley.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 05:58:33 pm by Daemon » Logged

Hakugei
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2017, 05:57:27 pm »

The entire premise behind the change is dubious at best. To put it bluntly, the restrictions feel very artificial and, perhaps more importantly, counterintuitive. [...] One would really have to question the sanity of the people who pushed for the change, especially considering the fact that virtually any modern computer mouse comes with software suites that allow one to write extremely meticulous macros. Rolleyes 
Yes, all of this is so pointless. Afro
I've told the people that demanded changes and "fixes" this repeatedly over and over again.
They didn't want to listen to me, so I decided to SHOW them why their complaints are ignorantly stupid. Afro
But guess what, even now specific people don't understand what the problem behind their reasoning is. Huh

If the "issue" is deemed to be really important
It is only deemed really important by the people that felt like they're no longer the uber-pwners once they figured out people can cheat input, but then wouldn't listen when I told them that doesn't even have anything to do with Savage.



So now, I want the Newerth Council and Savage Community to finally put this 7-year long debate about auto_attack to rest by experiencing both ends of the coin themselves because they just won't listen to me.

And yes, obviously restricting a feature is going to feel bad and make the people that actually use it (ergo, not the people complaining about the feature in the first place) be entirely unhappy about it.

And yes, obviously the problem isn't auto_attack nor Savage, but ignorant fools would rather demand changes than take a moment to actually think about it.



Said people know who they are.
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SavageBeard
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2017, 07:40:15 pm »

Let the cheaters cheat, beast is hard enough as it is

Bring back auto attack as it once were  Beast Mist

If anything, maybe you can put a delay on toggling it, like you cant toggle auto attack faster than two swings? If you auto attack, you have to complete at least three swings?? Will fix anything?!
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Hakugei
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2017, 07:44:38 pm »

If anything, maybe you can put a delay on toggling it, like you cant toggle auto attack faster than two swings? If you auto attack, you have to complete at least three swings??
So you're saying put artificial restrictions on it?  Afro That's what we have now and no one is happy.

Will fix anything?!
Nope, that wouldn't fix any of the issues anyway.
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Hakugei
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2017, 02:02:52 am »

New patch is up!
Continuation of the 1.3.1 autoattack revamping, check it out here.
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